Sorry, maybe I'm looking at this through my black and amber tinted glasses but I don't see logic in saying Kilkenny's dominance is bad for hurling. Every sport evolves. Hurling is no different. The game has developed consistently over the years. Kilkenny's dominance now is same as Cork in the 40's-early 50's or Tipp in late 50's, early 60's. They took the game to a new level then and it was up to other teams to catch up. The same is evident now. Kilkenny took the game to a new leve. Once a team reaches the same level as Kilkenny, then the game will reach yet another level. Tipp matched Kilkenny in 2010 and deservedly won an All Ireland but great teams bounce back. In 2011, Kilkenny wiped Tipp off the field. It is up to other counties to reach these standards. This will happen and then either another county will set a new standard or Kilkenny will kick on again.

I do not and nor will I ever accept this argument about Kilkenny being cynical. If conceding a free stops a goal at the cost of a point, I'd be more worried if a team hadn't the cop-on to do this. I absolutely hate this argument about kilkenny fouling. Tipp, Galway, every county foul. The hurl on the shoulder may be specifically mentioned in the rule-book but every hurler at every level ends up doing it. It is one of the beauties of hurling, to see fellas competing for a high ball not giving an inch. Would it be good for hurling if this element of the game was lost?

Kilkenny are a physical team, have no doubt about it but they also have the skill to match. Other teams are just as physical as Kilkenny but do not know how to use it in a proper manner. Look at Offaly yesterday. They are a group of massive men who had kilkenny on the ropes. While they used there size to bully the kilkenny backs, their own backs used their size completely wrong. Their fouls were very cynical, bordering on dirty. Cathal Parlon should have gone by the 5th minute. The first snig on richie hogan may have been accidental but was careless so justified a yellow, the second when tj reid was going for a high ball and used his hurl to protect his catching hand and got flaked on his other hand, a good 3 foot from the ball. I have no doubt he would have been booked if he hadn't been booked earlier or if this incident had occurred later on. David Kenny's shoulder into Aidan Fogarty chest was very dirty, he was not committed and could easily pull out. Colin egan had a similar challenge on joyce though not as bad. I admired what Offaly brought to the game yesterday but there fouling and its nature was way beyond anything Kilkenny have ever done. I think 5 offaly backs were booked in the 1st half. This isn't an Offaly bashing exercise. They are a team of big men and right to use it but with experience they will learn to use it correctly. There was a stat early in the second half which showed 16 offaly fouls to 6 by kilkenny.

Kilkenny use their physicality correctly, there is very seldomly a dirty stroke pulled by them (with exception of the odd Tommy Walsh rush of blood). Following a Ger Loughnane outburst a few years ago about kilkenny being dirty, Brian Cody was able to say: "our team doctor (Tadgh Crowley) got a text from the Cork team doctor (Con Murphy) saying that in 30 years treating Cork senior hurling teams he has never treated a hand injury after playing Kilkenny". Kilkenny have been on the receiving end of much worse over the last few years. eg. pauraic maher on rice last year, Iarlaith Tannion on TJ Reid in replay, Tannion on Power in first half of replay. The y are just a few very recent examples.

Kilkenny have taken the game to a new level predominantly through skill but with a good mix of physicality. The problem is other teams are trying to reach the level by being excessively physical. Kilkenny's dominance is not bad for hurling because it shows what can be achieved through hard work and commitment. Any young fella should aspire to follow this.

KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 10/06/2013 12:11:34    1402893

Kilkenny winning is good for kilkenny , winning all the time does not generate interest in game beyond usual audience ,
Theres a challenge out there for every county and so far challenge hasn't been met , argument put forward are they good for hurling , well their good for kilkenny hurling , i watch hoping that they get beaten , Not to see that they have fallen behind in standards , but that someone has put the work in , plus have the added ability to match .
You want to end their reign , get off your backside county boards mentors and coaches , put in the work , and then more work and you might have a chance

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 10/06/2013 12:16:37    1402899

Kilkenny are good for hurling. They have mastered the 3 most important qualities that make a great team, skill, physicality and fitness. There is also 2 big factors why they have dominated the last 7 years . 1. Galway not able to get their act together at senior level when they have had an embarrassment of riches at under age and club level. 2. Cork going on strike. They should have won at 2 more AI after '05 if it were not for the strike.

richiescats (USA) - Posts: 420 - 10/06/2013 17:49:10    1403394

Kilkenny have been great for the sport. They have raised the standard and threshold required to win an all ireland. This team has provided some of the greatest hurlers ever to grace the game. It is rare to have a team with the likes of Tommy, JJ and Herny all to come at the one time. It is a privilege to watch them. Whilst the dominace hurts competitiveness, look at the joy when we do get beat. To be the best you have to beat the best.

If KK dominance was ruining the game, why are attendance figures up? Why did more people attend hurling championship matches than gaelic last year (replay aside gaelic with bigger and more counties should have far greater attendances)?

Offaly raised their game against us and I can tell from my many Offaly friends they were both excited to see the cats come to town and thrilled with the first half performance and score line.

If their dominace was bad, why would people from all counties travel to Nowlan Park to see them train?

Is other counties trying to raise their skill, fitness levels and ways of beating KK a good thing? Of course.

Look at the trips both publicised and non-publicised thsi KK team and management team do to promote hurling.

Unfortunately, it seems that there is an awful lot of bitternes from Cork people towards this KK team. It may not be what the original poster intended but unfortunately comes across that way. Then we have the absolute shite about KK fouling / playing on the egde. KK have the most skillful hurlers as a group. Just face up to it. Hurling needs a resurgent Cork. But we don't need their whinging supporters. Donal O'Grady yesterday said it all. Didn't think that Parlon should have been sent off. As Ger Loughnane rightly pointed out, if it was Tommy and KK they'd have been calling blue murder.

Isn't it about time someone posted the shite about us not playing football by the way? We're so good at football, that our next match, we are going to play a whole country rather than a county!

Up the cats!

Puddersthecat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1692 - 10/06/2013 18:54:16    1403471

Lets put a follow up question to the threads question.

If people think Kilkenny aren't good for hurling, would people prefer if Kilkenny didn't play hurling then?

I would imagine almost everyone would say no. Mostly because hurling needs as many strong teams as possible. Therefore you can't say a team is bad for hurling if they just happen to be, for the time being anyway, stronger than the rest. This thread it sounds like is more sour grapes than anything.

Put it this way, Ballyhale Shamrocks have won 5 of the last 7 county titles in Kilkenny. Has that been bad for the Kilkenny club championship? No, in fact its quite the opposite, they draw bigger crowds to their games because fans want to see the best (and maybe an upset), and clubs in Kilkenny relish the chance to have a cut at them every time they play them to test themselves against one of the best club sides ever. The same way it was with Birr, Portumna, Toomevara and Athenry when they were at their best in their respective counties.

To some to see a dominant team means giving up and moaning about when they win. To those with the right attitude a dominant team is there to test yourself against them, to challenge them, and to try and surpass them, á la they way Tipp did to Kilkenny under Sheedy. It depends on which attitude you take, either moan louder or try harder.

dblackandamber (Kilkenny) - Posts: 92 - 10/06/2013 19:00:18    1403479

PudderstheCat

Unfortunately, it seems that there is an awful lot of bitternes from Cork people towards this KK team. It may not be what the original poster intended but unfortunately comes across that way. Then we have the absolute shite about KK fouling / playing on the egde. KK have the most skillful hurlers as a group.

Like who? You have taken a sample of one person (Midleton I presume-I hope you don't include me in that) and have extrapolated that statistic to cover a county with a population of almost 500,000. If those are your analytical skills and you use this forum to make value judgements on where a person comes from, then fair play, it is hardly worth arguing with you. You are right when you said that original poster did not intend the discussion to go this way. However, a typical HS situation has emerged where we have people looking at where a person comes from rather than what they are saying.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 11/06/2013 10:25:53    1403833

Bennybunny I think when you are at the top you are shot at a lot more and unfortunately the physical nature of the game we play often is the easiest argument to use. I definitely think we are one of the more physical teams and I love that about us but too often is this strength seen as over the top. I have spoken to good honest GAA people in Cork who are well aware of the lack of dirt in Kilkenny's hurling, it is however the other people in some counties my own included; the ones who go to 2 or 3 games a year and watch the League and see a few Yellows being handed out for what wouldn't be a free in the championship and get excited! I honestly think that you have people who go over the top in every county and I think that Midleton is ruining a lot of other people's opinions (not mine I may add)

I do think however that Offaly got it 70% right when it came to the Physicality, and fair play to them they've built a solid unit of BIG men and I think if they can stop Waterford running at them they might well get past them.

KKid (Kilkenny) - Posts: 421 - 11/06/2013 12:53:16    1404017

KKid

I agree with everything you said. If anybody reads through any of my posts in any thread, if I am ever critical, I usually keep my criticism for my own county and not anybody else. It is only Midleton and I that have posted on this thread so for the other KK poster to come along and say we are bitter is just ridiculous. Are we envious? Damn right we are. Are we sick of seeing KK winning every year? Damn right we are too. Would you expect anything less? Would you expect any of your rivals to have different feelings? (because if teams just stand back and admire then they may as well pack it up) we want to compete at the highest level. we want to emulate what you have done and stand and applaud. and right now we are not and it hurts. But envy is not a synonym of bitterness and it certainly is not a lack of respect for KK (not from my part).

I stand by my initial post (and others made it as well). In my opinion the supreme dominance of one team for a prolonged period is not good. The ONLY thing that can be done to stop that dominance is somebody else steps up to the plate. I hope that happens soon and I too hope that the cats maintain their standard (believe it or not).

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 11/06/2013 13:14:46    1404038

They are hurling..

Its up to every other county to get up to there level. The way they hurl is nothing but admirable. All the skill in the world but physically tough and super fit.

Love watching them

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 11/06/2013 17:12:15    1404315

In an Answer No There were 70 kids in the field last night from 6 to 10 yrs old hurling everyone a Henry or Tommy. We went to Offaly at the weekend for a challenge game the crowd around the field to welcome our club was massive. The skill commitment and heart that the teams showed was unreal for young lads. The physicality shown at this age will come through later in their careers and its not far off either. I spoke to a few ex county men from Offaly and the were excited about the game. They didnt think they were going to win but said they would be competitive for 40 to 50 minutes. There was a great atmosphere around the ground and in the town. If this is bad for hurling long may it continue.

Dzer (Kilkenny) - Posts: 29 - 13/06/2013 13:15:20    1405655

They get away with a lot of stuff. They are also the best to watch and quietest boys off the pitch. I have been to see this current team many times and I absolutely love the way the play the game. Everyone else should suck it up and find a way to beat them and stop whinging.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8403 - 13/06/2013 13:46:38    1405696

if I was thinking in a purely selfish wexford way they are not good,but overall they set that bar very high and the rest of us may get up to that standard.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 13/06/2013 13:53:37    1405704

Kilkenny aren't bad for hurling. They are the yardstick to which the rest of us have to get too. The rest of us just have a hell of a lot of catching up to do, but i'd like to think in Galway at least that maybe last year was a turn of a corner and we can kick on and really start to rival the cats.

Not really related but good to see Pudders floating about again - must really be championship time!!!

tribeinbrum (Galway) - Posts: 4155 - 13/06/2013 14:03:18    1405717

You can only admire them. They are where we all want to be. Incredible conveyor belt of hurlers with exceptional skills and huge physicality. There are also very few who can match their desire. We have similar situation in Wexford with Oulart winning everything. It's been 10-15 years since a decent team has come out of Wexford town and now we have the Harriers nipping out oularts heels. It's all very positive for Wexford hurling and it's the same on a national level. To be fair I even have great memories of losing to Kilkenny. In 05 when they were very lucky to beat us I was gutted but so proud! Everyone expected us to be hammered. Great to play them and give it a lash to see where your at.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3669 - 13/06/2013 14:15:14    1405731

Sorry to drag my thread back up again,but can I just say I also admire Kilkenny. Im very disappointed with the responses however. Barely anyone has answered the question I asked,so taking into account my audience ill keep it very very simple.
Are Kilkenny good for hurling? (Im not asking whether or not theyre a great team). I believe they aren't,because if their dominance continues,and I believe it will,interest in the championship I fear will start to decline.
So do you think that Kilkennys virtual monopolization of the liam McCarthy cup will benefit hurling as a whole? If so how and if not,why not?
Answer the question asked please.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/06/2013 15:48:13    1407283

I find that this is a problem that the Dublin footballers encounter regularly if they beat a team well. Usually the argument goes "Dublin have a bigger population, bigger budget etc etc". But the problem is that Dublin flatter to deceive and lose a game, and don't have the dominance in football that Kilkenny have in hurling.

Kilkenny are class....but they do get favourable treatment. They generally get decisions from refs that other teams get. Officials are almost afraid to send a Cat off. They are the dirtiest team in the country with regards off the ball stuff etc in hurling. BUT....they are fantastically talented hurlers too...THAT HELPS!

The real issue in hurling is that theres only about 12 teams that are playing senior standard hurling. And the Cats are streets ahead of the rest. Plus they concentrate on hurling only. If Cork or Dublin focused all their resources on Hurling....they would break that dominance Im sure. But they cant because both counties mentioned have strong football tradition. Kilkenny don't...they have only one real focus....HURLING.

The real problem for me in hurling is the lack of teams. Its a predictable championship each year.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 15/06/2013 16:25:23    1407299

How could the best hurling team ever to exist be bad for the game???

The problem in Ireland is 1. we knock anything better than us and 2. we have no actual journalists covering the GAA, they go for the lowest common denominator all the time, negative sells, and then people repeat it like parrots.

KK have set the standard. You want to beat them ...well you better lay out a strategy, implement a plan and execute it with dedicated focus (like KK) to do so. Too hard for many counties to even think about such a thing!

Why should KK apologise for perfection.

No they are good for the game as they will drag others up to their standard.

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 15/06/2013 16:39:12    1407308

witnof

Did I say they should apologise? No I didn't.

Your solution is that others should reach kilkennys standard. I can just picture intercounty hurling managers up and down the country reading your post and saying 'Of course,it was so simple all along.all we have to do is reach their standard". (sarcasm)
Teams have been trying to reach their standard for years and if anything the gap is getiing bigger.

As for implementing a strategy, I would suggest that the only strategy that will work is if other counties do what kilkenny have done and pretty much abandon all other sports apart from hurling.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/06/2013 16:50:16    1407315

Sorry JayP. If you are going to say Kilkenny are the dirtiest team around, back up your point. When was the last time a fella got badly injured against Kilkenny? you will have to go back a long time. With regards to refs being afraid to send off kilkenny hurlers, there were 2 hurlers sent off last year, one being richie hogan. He was sent off against limerick for pulling across someone after being fouled. it probably justified a red but a limerick player did an identical pull on hogan about 2 or 3 minutes before that. He wasn't sent off. Look at Pauraic Maher in the semi. He could have been sent off 3 or 4 times, the pull on rice, he swung back across richie powers head on the end line and did similar to TJ Reid. Iarla Tannion did an awful dirty pull on Reid to fracture his knee cap in replayed all irland, the ball wasn't on his knee. Fast forward to last Sunday, Offaly were doing all the dirty hurling and hitting late. As Brian Cody said, "our team doctor (Tadgh Crowley) got a text from the Cork team doctor (Con Murphy) saying that in 30 years treating Cork senior hurling teams he has never treated a hand injury after playing Kilkenny". If your going to make statements about Kilkenny being dirtiest team, back it up with facts.

As for the main topic, Kilkenny are good for hurling because they have been the main force behind the evolution of the game in the last 8-10 years. They are the best team to ever play the game. I can't comprehend how people can say a group with some of the best hurlers ever can be bad for hurling. I will say though that Kilkenny's dominance can take some of the competitive edge off hurling

However, I think it may be more appropriate to ask "Is the other teams failure to match the levels of Kilkenny bad for hurling"?

KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 15/06/2013 16:52:51    1407316

Kk4life,i have to agree. I find kilkenny quite a likeable team from that point of view. No diving,feigning injury,just good hard men who want to play ball.
In the semi last year Maher swung a hurl at Tj Reid. Any other team player would have thrown himself to the ground and rolled around,but the Kilkenny man just looked at him as if to say "what are you at ya eejit?".Just a good honest player.
There are far worse out there than kilkenny.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/06/2013 17:06:48    1407319