ormondbannerman the league has merit and it should be supported better but when teams don't take it seriously ala Donegal we have a problem. Whats the purpose of the finals? We have the top two teams already promoted but then play in a empty Croke Park for a token trophy.

Create new titles. The only titles those teams can win and make it THE ONLY show in town with Sam Maguire as the ultimate goal but a regionalised title can be won on the way that has a better structure than the current provincial championship.

Listen I love the Ulster championship and really would be delighted if Donegal won a 3rd successive Ulster title but the problem lays solely in the Maths

Why are Kerry playing two games in two weeks, then a break of 6 weeks for Cork and then a month break for Quarter final. Why are Mayo and Galway playing in May with the loser not playing again for 6 weeks

My concept is about bringing a proper structure/giving every team goals to win/keeping local rivalry and aiding the club championship by having certain dates for championship set in stone

The 4 eights approach is fine but we still have a weak Connacht and Munster championship

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 370 - 01/06/2013 12:14:53    1396396

Kurt_Angle
I can see where you're coming from here and it's hard to argue with in the interest of fairness. The other side of seeding, though, is that it keeps the better teams apart which leads to dull, one sided qualifiers and the usual suspects being involved at the business end of the season.

You make a fair enough counter argument. All I'll say is, if the qualifiers were seeded based on the league, it would give the league an added edge. Teams doing well in the league would be rewarded by avoiding a potential difficult apponent. It would even out discrepancies between different provincial championships. Tyrone lament Kerry playing Tipperary and Waterford but if Tyrone due to their league position were to be seeded to draw a Tipperary or Waterford in the qualifiers, it would bring some fairness.

Provincial based qualifiers:
The only other alternative I see is for the qualifiers to be provincial based. At the Qualifier Round 3 stage, 16 teams are still in the championship, half the 32 that started, discounting NY. 3 from 6 Munster, 3 from 6 Connaught, 4 or 5 from 9 Ulster and 5 or 6 from 11 Leinster should make the last 16. With 8 teams coming from the provincial finalists, the 8 teams in Qualifier Round 3 should be 1 Munster, 1 Connuaght, 2 or 3 Ulster and 3 or 4 Leinster.

Munster - the 4 non-finalists should play-off for 1 spot in Qualifier Round 3.
Connaught - the 4 non-finalists should play-off for 1 spot in Qualifier Round 3.
Leinster - 9 non-finalists and Ulster Preliminary Round loser should play-off for 4 spots in Qualifier Round 3.
Ulster - 6 non-finalists, Preliminary Round loser excluded, should play-off for 2 spots in Qualifier Round 3.

This would give provinces more control of arranging fixtures as well. Tipperary will have a bit of a wait for their qualifier but if it was within Munster, it could be arranged that they would take on a semi-final loser from the other side of the draw - Cork or Clare in their first round qualifier a bit closer to the time of their quarter-final loss.

In some ways, I would nearly suggest to scrap Qualifier Rounds 3 and 4 and go with a Round of 16. Draw 4 provincial champions at home against the 4 lowest qualifiers based on league placings. Draw the 4 defeated provincial finalists against the 4 higher qualifiers based on league placing with a separate draw to determine home tie. With this, qualifiers could run more in parallel with the provincial championships:

1) Provincial Preliminary Rounds
2) Provincial Quarter-finals
3) Provincial Semi-finals - Qualifier Round 1 games the same weekends
4) Provincial Finals - Qualifier Round 2 games the same weekends
5-8) Round of 16 on to quarter-finals then etc.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8952 - 01/06/2013 12:31:24    1396404

Leinster

Dublin 1.22 - Westmeath 0.9
Carlow 1.10 - Westmeath 3.15
Louth 1.16 - Laois 1.06

Munster

Kerry 2.19 - Tipperary 0.8
Kerry 3.14 - Waterford 0.4
Cork 3.17 - Limerick 0.8

Connacht

Galway 0.11 - Mayo 4.16


...so can someone please explain why we shouldnt at least try an alternative to the provincial championships or at least separate them from the championship itself with results like these. And dont play the Ulster card we all know there not the issue but take one and them them all. And yes I know I excluded the results of some tighter games

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 01/06/2013 20:46:54    1396682

Sorry make that Kerry 4.21 - Waterford 1.04

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 01/06/2013 20:50:42    1396685

Individual results to suit your argument crossfieldball. The reasons for keeping provincial championships has been highlighted on numerous threads if you and others choose to ignore them fair enough but don't try to forced your opinion on the senisble opinions of the majority.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3655 - 01/06/2013 21:12:04    1396693

01/06/2013 12:31:24
legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 2463
1396404

In some ways, I would nearly
suggest to scrap Qualifier
Rounds 3 and 4 and go with a
Round of 16.

Great idea... I had it myself about a year ago :) Pretty sure i posted it here too. It would open the championship out nicely, flattening it out like that. Would possibly make it easier to plan games.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1198 - 01/06/2013 21:35:58    1396727

Gaa_Lover time for change this thing of how the weaker counties have a chance in the provincials doesnt add up. For any underdog to win a province they will at some point face Donegal, Tyrone, Dublin, kerry,Cork and Mayo respectively.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 01/06/2013 21:41:13    1396736

I believe Limerick and Tipp could still ruffle a few feathers in qualifiers this year. Limerick got to All Ireland quarter final 2 years ago through a qualifier run and in last two years have drawn with Kildare and beaten Offaly, Wexford and Longford in the Championship. Tipp beat Offaly, Wexford and Antrim in that time. Meath have only to beat Wicklow and maybe Louth to reach a provincial final, and Kerry or Cork would prob beat Meath or Louth comfortably. It is predictable in Munster, but in Leinster isn't a team going for 8 titles in 9 years. In Munster at least it's evenly shared between two. And look at last 5 results of Limerick Cork games before last weekend and maybe it shows it's not such a cakewalk. Last time they played was 3 years ago in qualifiers, Cork won by 2 points after extra time, the same year Tipp also beat Laois in the back door.
In my opinion, the Ulster, Munster and Connacht championships should remain as they are but I would disband the Leinster championship, let Dublin into the All Ireland series and let the other 10 battle it out with Kilkenny and New York for an All Ireland B title. Obviously that's tongue in cheek but as a Limerick man I would be totally against changing the provincial series.

pj_mcmanus (Limerick) - Posts: 431 - 01/06/2013 22:01:56    1396761

crossfieldball County: Galway Posts: 325

1396682

Leinster

Dublin 1.22 - Westmeath 0.9 Carlow 1.10 - Westmeath 3.15 Louth 1.16 - Laois 1.06

Now crossfield by all means put your arguments across but don't use one sided and only half the facts to tWhere is wicklow longford game? Omitted for same reason?? Both these games were highly entertaining, and you also left out the league ones semi finals team kildare game against lowly division 4 opposition offaly?? Why? Surely that must have been the biggest winning margin of them all?? After all they would have the biggest gap between league placing? Just to inform you it was 4 points.
Please give all the facts and not just the ones that suit your point of view

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 02/06/2013 08:20:12    1396768

that would be so boring, so some counties would only ever get to play 3 counties!! just leave as is, its up to the counties to get themselves in order, tough luck if they're useless!

loyal82royal (Meath) - Posts: 260 - 02/06/2013 10:09:38    1396786

look, get over yourselves. We have a super sport with super championship games every year. People complain about fairness yaddy yadda. A county based system will never be fair but I come from a county with the odds stack against us more than most but that doesn't stop me loving every minute of the championship there will always be hammerings regardless of the system. But if we change there won't always be provincial champions and that would be a real shame.

bugsie (Leitrim) - Posts: 199 - 02/06/2013 11:21:42    1396829

Lads in not picking and choosing facts to favour my proposal here. Im simply showing that the bigger counties are miles ahead. You make the point about Wicklow v Longfort, yes a tight contest but put either against the dubs and its carnage. Likewise with Armagh v Cavan put either against Donegal and its a funeral.

The weaker or smaller counties with the way preparation and tactics has gone wont win a provincial title as with the format of the competitions, they will always encounter the big team at some point.

The advantage with a champions League is the open draw gives everyone a chance. For example lets look at some possible outcomes...

E.g. 1

Dublin
Cork
Fermanagh
Waterford

Ok this group is lobsided with no chance for Fermanagh or Waterford, but this is what an open draw may or may not produce.

E.g. 2

Donegal
Leitrim
Carlow
London

Again a non contest for Donegal but for a weaker county a great chance to make a round of 16, which through the current system they may not do.

E.g. 3

Dublin
Kerry
Kildare
Donegal

and

Letrim
Antrim
Clare
Carlow

A group of death, two big teams will be eliminated leaving what some may call a weaker round of 16 giving more opportunity for weaker teams to progress. In the second group 4 weaker teams but evenly matched, competitive games and a great chance for all involved.

E.g. 4

Mayo
Westmeath
Down
Wexford

these groups are highly possible in which all 4 team have equal chance making it very exciting.

This format I think will create alot of excitement especially around the draw time and with 3 games its an extra game that alot of counties sometimes dont get. Also it allows everyone to play a game at home, a game away and a neutral game.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 02/06/2013 12:59:50    1396916

A few county championships have group stages. I'm not sure if has made all better competitions. There's not always a solution that fits all. Having every competition the same is as boring as having every celtic tiger house designed the same, every celtic tiger pub being designed the same without the character of more traditional pubs and as boring as having every stadium being designed the same. The provincial championships are unique and offer different type of competition to others. When people are looking for change, they should be looking to build around current structures. There are a few options for that, move a few counties to other provinces on a trial basis as happened with Galway and Antrim in hurling. The qualifiers could be seeded based on league as mentioned already as have about a round of 16. There are options within the current structures for change. The opposite to a round of 16 would be to bring in a champions round as mooted by Tyrone and Dublin a few years back.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8952 - 02/06/2013 13:20:53    1396947

01/06/2013 21:41:13
crossfieldball
County: Galway
Posts: 326

1396736
Gaa_Lover time for change this thing of how the weaker counties have a chance in the provincials doesnt add up. For any underdog to win a province they will at some point face Donegal, Tyrone, Dublin, kerry,Cork and Mayo respectively.

The only chance a lot of the weaker counties have of winning something is the provincials championship and you want to get rid of that??? yup that really adds up.

Some of the best GAA moments of the last 20 years has come in the provincial championship from Clare 1992,Leitrim 1994 to Westmeath to 2003.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3655 - 02/06/2013 16:24:56    1397123

Gaa_Lover

Answer me this will Cavan or Antrim beat Donegal should they meet yes or no? Will Louth beat Dublin should they meet yes or no? Will Clare beat Cork yes or no? Will Leitrim, Roscommon or London beat Mayo yes or no?

Maybe in the past before all this science and tactics came into our game weaker teams had a chance and yes the great moments you mentioned were great moments but the weaker counties dont have the money nor the pool of players to compete with the bigger powers and as I eluded to that in a provincial C/ship the for the underdog to win at some point they will have to play Goliath. At with a group system you have a chance or a favorable group and a favorable draw beyond that.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 02/06/2013 19:51:47    1397252

Soon as we see a few one sided opening round championship games, there is a rally to scrap the provincial championships. I agree there is room for Improvement, but I think that can be done while maintaining the current provincial structure.

Football's current top sides are Donegal, Dublin, Cork, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Kildare and Down. We could see most of these sides potentially win an All Ireland, especially the top 5 or 6 sides.
We then have teams like Derry, Laois, Westmeath, Armagh, Galway, Louth, Meath, Monaghan etc who are weaker, but have the potential to break into the top 6-8 teams.

We then have teams like Cavan, Roscommon and Tipperary who have done great things at underage, and are trying to bring this success on to Senior level. The beauty of the Championship in many ways is that it allows for ties between sides that wouldn't play each other otherwise.
At the minute we have a few teams that have moved ahead of the game. But the rest will catch up shortly and close this gap.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 02/06/2013 20:13:03    1397273

I think that things are fine by and large.Four-six potential winners is really good.From 2002 to 2010 there was never more than three,(in 2007 there was only one) so its grand as it is.
There are also plenty of good games to come between some of the lesser teams,even if they wont yield a potential winner.I only wish the hurling championship was as competitive.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 02/06/2013 20:28:37    1397290

02/06/2013 19:51:47
crossfieldball
County: Galway
Posts: 328

1397252
Gaa_Lover

Answer me this will Cavan or Antrim beat Donegal should they meet yes or no? Will Louth beat Dublin should they meet yes or no? Will Clare beat Cork yes or no? Will Leitrim, Roscommon or London beat Mayo yes or no?

Did you start to follow GAA football the last few years or something? You come have those match ups in the back door or your must wanted open championship with the same quations. The fact is good teams come and go sure before Jim arrived at Donegal they weren't even tipped to win Ulster but look at them now.... Mayo had to struggle through some tough games in Connacht over the last two years but now they are expected to reach the All Ireland semi final at least.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3655 - 02/06/2013 20:47:14    1397317

My phone is playing up that should have read..

You could have those match ups in the back door or your much wanted open championship with the same questions.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3655 - 02/06/2013 20:51:36    1397322

This is what I'd do
Play the old all Ireland format in the spring instead of the league


From lets say April start the big one

32 county open draw with a qualifier system

When it's down to the last eight ( to be marketed as the super eight series) split the teams into 2 groups of 4 with each team playing the other teams in their group once

Top 2 teams in each group qualify for the all Ireland semi

Going on the last ten years teams like Sligo Westmeath Wexford
Fermanagh Limerick Have all reached at least the last eight.

Going on 2010 the groups might have looked something like

Dublin. Kerry
Tyrone. Down
Cork Kildare
Donegal. Meath

Nice little competition to have at the height of summer
A lot of the group games could be played at nutreal venues on sunny sat evenings

Dublin away to Cork needing a point to qualify might be tasty fixture.

bernardmessi (Dublin) - Posts: 182 - 02/06/2013 21:00:40    1397332