If we can't amalgamate all these threads calling for change, what hope is there of amalgamating all counties in to one championship only without the provinces.

The GAA have hinted they'd be open to a few counties moving to other provinces. It would seem to be the most likely change if counties were open to it. The Longford chairman said a few years ago that personally he'd be open to the idea of Longford moving to the Connuaght championship on a temporary basis. Galway and Antrim came into Leinster on an initial 3 year basis. Would anything be lost in 3 or 4 football counties moving for a year or two. If it works great, if not return to where they were.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8953 - 29/05/2013 19:09:12    1394708

Of course the system needs to change, there are two provincial championships that are a total farce. In no way is there a level playing field for Leinster and Ulster teams who have to play more matches for the same prize. Counties are being penalised for geographical location, a better system would be a north, south, east, west championships, 8 teams in all 4. Yes it would mean an end to the provinces, and counties playing in unfamiliar territory, BUT at least you would have four competitive championships and everyone was given a fair chance. Martin Breheny (I think it was him) devised this idea in the indo a while back, can't find a link to it, but it was a great idea.

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 29/05/2013 19:18:27    1394713

why do lads bother themselves writing this cause its never going to happen never

________

My thoughts exactly.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13654 - 29/05/2013 19:30:41    1394718

waynoI
County: Dublin
Posts: 5950

1394297 i think we need to get away from the provincial system. i know people will always say that there is great games in the ulster football championship and the munster hurling championship but there is only a sprinkling of top games between all the other provinces in both codes. my suggestion for football would to see something like 6 groups of 5 and one group of 4 - this is including london and new york. groups should be seeded on previous championship or league record. top 2 in each go through and the best 2 of these go straight to the all ireland quarter final ie the 2 teams out of the seven group winners with the most points. so you have 12 teams to play off for the last 6 places. the next 8 play for a second tier trophy such as the tommy murphy cup starting from the quarter final stage, these will be the seven third place teams and one fourth place team,this the team being the one who finish fourth in the group of 4 as they will have played a game less than the other fourth place teams. the 12 teams that are left are out and can go home. with every team getting at least 4 games. what do people think of this idea?

__________


I read from and up until the end of the bold writing before giving up.. Getting rid of the provincial championships ? No thanks.



Same as that.
Great the way it is.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 29/05/2013 19:33:37    1394720

if you think is great the way it is then you need to get your head sorted my friend. because it is quiet clear that it is an unfair system. and waynol why are you even commenting when all you are doing is copying others negative comments and saying "i agree" if you dont like it stay away

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 29/05/2013 19:47:39    1394737

So because I look forward to and enjoy immensely the Ulster Championship , I need my head sorted.
Are you for real?
It is up to the provinces and then the counties to sort them selves.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 29/05/2013 21:19:07    1394804

i did say in my first post that the ulster football championship is still very competitive, but open your eyes because the ulster is not the only province in ireland, bar the munster hurling championship and ulster football every other province in both codes are not up to standard, its fine for you to sayleave it the way it is but it is not helping the development of either code throughout the rest of the country

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 30/05/2013 09:40:08    1394879

Hurlingexpert. In last 20 odd years. Leinster championship has been won by offaly, meath, kildare, Westmeath, laois and Dublin.
wexford and louth can count themselves unlucky not to have won one, can same be said of Munster hurling?? I doubt it. Now at least give some credit where it deserves it.
Dublin are at a extreme high at minute, but still all of wmeath, kildare, meath, louth, wexford would see themselves as having leinster hopes not of all ire. The leinster football championship is still very much alive.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 30/05/2013 15:27:54    1395264

Im sensing some of the bigger counties who are dominating their provinces are afraid to venture out into an open draw or champions league format. What ye afraid of?

As I suggested on another thread i'd like to see this:

Really and truly Munster and Connacht I have become non competitive. Ulster, while competitive is a two horse race for the foreseeable future and Leinster is great until you add in Dublin and they decimate all before them.

As one poster eluded to what about 4 regions Western, Southern, Northern, Eastern. 8 teams in each. I think your thought process is good however really its still provincial championships.

But keeping on those lines what about Two Championships - Western Conference and Eastern Conference. 16 teams in each which remain consist year on year. You draw a line from Antrim to Kerry and snake it here and there too make too very competitive sides.

E.g.

Western: Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Donegal, Kerry, Clare, Limerick, Roscommon, Leitrim, Longford, Offaly, Fermanagh, Cavan, Westmeath, Tipperary, Monaghan

Eastern: Dublin, Wicklow, London, Wexford, Laois, Waterford, Cork, Derry, Antrim, Tyrone, Carlow, Louth, Down, Armagh, Meath, Waterford


Structure:

Each Championship has 16 teams, Divided into 4x4 with semi finalists from previous season been seeded into each of the 4 groups. Both Championships remain separate from each and all games within each side remain in venues in that side. So no Western games would be in Croke Park.

The winner of each championship competes in the All-Ireland. I'd also see the Conference finals being major events with Castlebar for example jammed for what would effectively be the AL semi final between lets say Kerry and Donegal, there would also be a trophy for the winner of each region.

I think having two separate sides would even things out, if a single county can only be drawn against 15 other teams, they will began to adapt and teams will get familiar with eachother and it will all level out.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 30/05/2013 16:42:26    1395373

It's not the minnows that are skewing the provincial championships but the current big fish. Remove Cork and Kerry from Munster and the other 4 (67% of the province) are at approximately the same level. Remove Dublin from Leinster and there are several counties who'd fancy their chances including Meath, Westmeath, Kildare, Wexford, Louth and Laois (I would have thought) etc. (55% of the province approx.). Remove Donegal and Tyrone from Ulster and I think all 7 of the others (78% of the province) would have provincial aspirations. Take Mayo from Connacht and all the other "home" counties (80%) would feel they have a shout, with a favourable draw.

This is the situation today. Who's to say what it'll be like in 5 years? Donegal came from relative obscurity recently. Down were All Ireland finalists when Donegal were in the doldrums. It's all cyclical, with only a few exceptions.

In conclusion, remove the few big guns and you'll have 4 very competitive provinces :-)

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 30/05/2013 17:39:30    1395432

crossfieldball
County: Galway
Posts: 311

1395373


Really and truly Munster and Connacht I have become non competitive

You like repeating yourself while ignoring replys. Whatever about Munster, Connacht has been competitive!

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 4084 - 30/05/2013 18:23:03    1395467

Seeding would be a double positive in my opinion because it would reward teams for good league performances. For example, Donegal would be second seeds in that scenario next year, which would make for a terrific group with a top seeded team.

Have home advantage for the winner of every group in the last 16 and that will mean there are no meaningless games.

3rd and 4th (groups of 4) would go into a seperate championship - 3rd place getting home advantage.

I can't imagine there are many sports with 32 teams, 4 groups, where one of the groups has 12 teams and one has 6. It is bizarre to say the least

MayoMark (Mayo) - Posts: 332 - 30/05/2013 20:18:32    1395511

MayoMark
Seeding would be a double positive in my opinion because it would reward teams for good league performances. For example, Donegal would be second seeds in that scenario next year, which would make for a terrific group with a top seeded team.

There's a place for seeding qualifiers. Tyrone shouldn't be taking on another division 1 team in their 1st round qualifier.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8953 - 30/05/2013 21:39:08    1395559

The_analyser,

In response to your post, I think you'll agree Munster is the least competitive with Limerick looking dangerous at times but only in the qualifiers and never really good enough to challenge Cork or Kerry in Munster. It'll be some time before Tipp progress their underage success into senior (if they even do!) I know too well as a Galway man that in both codes its not that easy.

On the topic of Connacht, yes point taken all 5 counties have had success in the last 20 years which his something only Connacht can boost. With Mayo, Roscommon, Galway and Sligo winning in recent years. However Mayo are streets ahead for the foreseeable future. Roscommon are standing still and Galway and Sligo are declining. Any knockout competition with under 8 teams where you have unequal sides with a 1/4 and 1/2 final on one side and only a 1/2 final on the other is flawed and no good for development.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 31/05/2013 12:11:53    1395780

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 2462

There's a place for seeding qualifiers. Tyrone shouldn't be taking on another division 1 team in their 1st round qualifier.

I can see where you're coming from here and it's hard to argue with in the interest of fairness. The other side of seeding, though, is that it keeps the better teams apart which leads to dull, one sided qualifiers and the usual suspects being involved at the business end of the season. There haven't been any huge shocks in a few years (Mayo vs. Longford springs to mind but I'm sure posters can remember others), which has made the qualifiers a bit formulaic. Personally, I'd leave it as an open draw so that there is always the threat of two big guns meeting early with genuine excitement involved. However, in relation to seeding, I think that home advantage in all qualifiers should be given to the designated weaker team, which should be based on league finishing places (not that the league necessarily reflects the status of the team, but only because it's a previously defined strata). Taking the snooker route of always having the current champions as the #1 seed, then Dublin would be #2, Tyrone would #3 ... etc. This would give the weaker teams a real boost as it's unlikely that (for example) Louth would beat Kerry down in Killarney but I think they'd feel that they could give them a real game in Drogheda. Anything that increases the expectations of the so-called "smaller" counties is a positive and also, I would argue, increases the enjoyment of the designated stronger counties as resultant victories would (probably) be more hard fought. Just my two cents.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 31/05/2013 13:17:59    1395854

After the opening round in each province under the current format, the championship is left with a form of 4x8, without the need for any boundary changes: Three undefeated 'Eights' (Leinster 8, Ulster 8 and Munster/Connacht 4+4=8); and One defeated 'Eight' (1st rd losers, less New York) exclusively play the 8-team 1st Rd Qualifiers. From here, the provincial stream could play three KO reounds, to determine three undefeated champs that go to the AI QF via the 'front door' (requires play-off between Munster and Connacht champs). Beaten teams in the three rounds in quantities of 12, 6 and 3 enter Qualifier Rds 2, 3 and 4, respectively. Incredibly, this works out very neatly with Qualifier Rds of 8, 16, 14 and 10. Five winners from Rd 4 complete the AI QF field.

I would introduce a few other changes:
1) Bring back the Tommy Murphy Cup (15 losers from Qualifier Rds 2 and 3, with 1 of the 4 losers from Rd 1)
2) Seed the other provinces like Leinster.
3) Scrap the 'web squib' opening provincial rd - the provinces start with the blockbuster 'Super 24' (based on league ranking).


All told, the traditional provincial championships are retained; entry round to Qualifiers is fair for all; and without opening rd, any AI champ plays six games via front door, or seven via back door.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3299 - 31/05/2013 16:22:08    1396079

31/05/2013 12:11:53
crossfieldball
County: Galway
Posts: 316

1395780
The_analyser,

.

On the topic of Connacht, yes point taken all 5 counties have had success in the last 20 years which his something only Connacht can boost. With Mayo, Roscommon, Galway and Sligo winning in recent years. However Mayo are streets ahead for the foreseeable future. Roscommon are standing still and Galway and Sligo are declining. Any knockout competition with under 8 teams where you have unequal sides with a 1/4 and 1/2 final on one side and only a 1/2 final on the other is flawed and no good for development.
-------------------------------------

For example when your own county won the 1998-2001 All Ireland's they didn't have all their own way in Connacht and Mayo may have won the last two Connacht titles but they were pushed all the way in both finals.

Sligo remain inconsistent anything could happen with them. Galway are hardly going to let another two U-21 AI teams go to waste and we should improve in the years ahead also. We have back door knock out competition for sides that get knocked out of Connacht it's time that the likes of Galway start winnning a few games starting this June.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 4084 - 31/05/2013 18:02:37    1396149

I think we all know the league itself is really a dead duck and we should merge both National League and All Ireland series into a single championship along the lines of the NFL in America

32 teams(minus New York)

Start competition in Late March after Club finals.

32 two teams split into 8 groups of 4 based on geography. These groups would be permanent and all 4 teams would play against each other once with home advantage alternated each season. This keeps Derbies high and cuts down on travel, bigger attendances

On top of the 3 games a team plays against their group oponents, they also will play 7 more matches against teams from other conferences. This would be randomly generated by the GAA using a seeded method based on historical data which would mean teams would either 3/ 4 top 16 ranked teams and 3/4 bottom ranked 17th-32nd. So in total they'd play 10 matches each season 5 home and 5 away


The top team in all 8 groups would make the playoffs/final 12.
The 4 best placed other teams would make the playoffs/final 12 too

The top 4 winners would automatically go through to the quarter finals
The 4 other winners would playoff with home field advantage against the 4 best runners up with a seeded system eg

That would leave the final 8 in the quarter finals and games would then be played in Croke Park from this point on during August bank holiday

This would mean no more meaningless league, teams could play for a trophy each season as titles would be awarded for winning your group/conference

We could allow New York host a Tommy Murphy type cup with bottom 7 ranked sides to keep them in some form of comp

Here is the layout of proposed confernces:

North West Confernce
Donegal
Leitrim
Fermanaagh
Tyrone

Northern Confernce
Derry
Aintrim
Armagh
Down

Western Conference
Sligo
Roscommon
Galway
Mayo

Midlands COnference
Monaghan
Cavan
Longford
Westmeath

Eastern Conference
Louth
Dublin
Kildare
Meath


South Eastern Confernce
Wicklow
Carlow
Wexford
London

Southern Confernce
Offaly
Laois
Tipperary
Waterford

South West Confernce
Clare
Cork
Kerry
Limerick

So here is a likely scenario if we ran this experiment

Best teams
1- Dublin with 9 wins- win Eastern Conference chapionship
2-Mayo win 7 games-Wins Western Conference
3-Tyrone win 7 games-Wins North West confernce
4-Cork win 7 games-win South West Confernce

these 4 teams are through to the 1/4 finals with best record

The following are the 4 other champions who'll have home field advantage in the last 12
5-Down win 6 games-win Northern Confernce
6-Westmeath win 5 games win Midlands conference
7-laois win 5 games in Southern Confernce
8-Wexford win 4 games wins South Eastern Confernce

Best placed finishers that didnt win

9-Kerry win 6 games- Will play Wexford in Wexford
10 Donegal win 6 games- Will play Laois in Laois
11-Kildare win 5 games-Will play Westmeath in Westmeath
12- Armagh win 5 games-Will play Down in Down


and the ranking could continue right through to quarter finals. Also benefit of this system is GAA could construct the group games to ensure we always a have a big match every weekend eg. One weekend its galway v mayo, next weekend Cork v Kerry, next is Donegal v Tyrone, next Dublin v Kildare. Always big games and we could have a controlled situation wherby the live televised game is on aa Saturday evening whilst all other games are Sunday at 2pm to encourage people to go to the matches more

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 370 - 31/05/2013 18:39:47    1396174

shaggykev not bad. But how exactly is the league at the moment meaningless or a dead duck?
why get rid of long standing and good competitions that are the championships in each province?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 31/05/2013 21:09:23    1396265

My thoughts would be to scrap the league .

4 conferences .
8 teams in each conference (To be determined geographically and by team strength .)

Each team plays the other 7 in the conference with points being allocated for wins and draws .
The top 2 teams in each conference play to determine the conference champions.
4 remaining teams contest all Ireland semi finals .

Play 7 conference games over 7 weeks.
14 days off , then play the conference final .
14 days off , then play All Ireland semi's .
14 days off , then play All Ireland final .

The whole All Ireland championship is played off over 13 weeks .
Every team is guaranteed at least 7 games which will improve the weaker teams .
Club football will have it's own season . ( the current system is driving players away from GAA due to cancellations pend inter county results and fixtures )

In the NFL ( American football ) every team plays 16 games in 17 weeks .
It's far more physical than the GAA .

StopTheLights (Galway) - Posts: 415 - 01/06/2013 09:31:24    1396311