In my opinion new clubs, grounds, etc. should be named neutrally. Although I'm a republican, I'd rather that elements of a cultural and sporting organisation weren't named after gunmen.

Whatever about flags and anthems, which could be argued to be cultural expressions I think that the CLG should be separated from Catholicism and republicanism. Or I'd be surprised if the majority of HS posters didn't think so.

I usually look on at snuf's posts with distaste, but now I think he's a great man. Fantastic post.

AnRaibh (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 14/05/2013 12:45:30    1383648

SNUF
and wondered is the British Anthem played the same way before London games in Ruslip?


It's not played at Ruislip but a good question. I think the diaspora in America are comfortable with being Irish in america, or being Irish American or even Irish and American. For example, at St Patrick days parades you will see both the USA flag and Tricolour. At the USA world cup in 94, I saw soccer shirts that were half stars\stripes, half Ireland shirt. There is an easiness there that doesn't have all the historical\political\Irish\British,Nationalist,Unionist baggage

On the other hand I don't feel the same relationship exists between the Irish\Irish diaspora and Britain\Britishness. I can't imagine a St Pats parade in London or Birmingham being headed by a UJ and a tricolour. If we had qualified for Euro 96 I don't think Irish fans would have worn a soccer shirt that was half an England top\half Ireland top. In fact i don't think any shirt manufacturer or opportunist would have even bothered to produce one.

It's seems difficult for a lot of folk, even the moderates amongst us and I presume those on the unionist side to shift the British\irish psyche thing. For example I am mature enough to hope the island moves on and we need to. BUT.......Would it feel a tad strange\not quite right if GSTQ was played in ruislip ( i would respect it) followed by Amhrán na bhFiann just before the throw in? I'd have to say yes. Great question though SNUF!

Meath_bhoy (Meath) - Posts: 590 - 14/05/2013 12:54:12    1383661

There was a survey commissioned by Queens University Belfast in 2004 which provided conclusive proof that members of the Protestant faith and Unionist allegiance struggle with eye to hand co-ordination, fielding and taking 45's.

As a result of that I think the Nationalists should remain playing the sports and allow their brethern over the divide to focus on their music, such as the flute and the drum.

Samsforthehills (Donegal) - Posts: 1075 - 14/05/2013 13:10:25    1383678

Although the cultural divide is significant between nationalist and unionist it shouldn't be a barrier to unionists participating in Gaelic games. The GAA could dispense with some of its nationalist ethos that can be interpreted as hostile to unionists, while at the same time retaining the Gaelic cultural aspects of the games. National anthems for example should be preserved for international games only, and have no place in inter-county or club games. Has anyone ever heard the national anthem being played at an English Premiership match or at a Rabo Direct Pro 12 match. It would be simply too divisive and turn certain communities away from the sport altogether. Surely Gaelic games and culture can be promoted without wedding it to nationalism. One shouldn't have to be an Irish nationalist to participate in or admire aspects of Gaelic culture. However if unionists have to face being force fed the nationalism that seems to be part and parcel of Gaelic games is it any wonder so few of them get involved.

kerryhound (Kerry) - Posts: 37 - 14/05/2013 13:27:21    1383692

Its sport. Two great games that should be enjoyed by all no matter what creed or history. I know the history will bloody sunday and its worse again in the North but to have the games denied to many is a joke. then again the nationalists clung to GAA during the troubles. They see it as theirs. And it is. The hierarchy in the unionists will never support GAA as it would be a subverted admission of defeat. I would love to see the GAA embraced by every nation but Unionists are far off being a force in the GAA.
PS: stop using the word protestant to single out Unionist as In my club we have a number of protestant Irish who are GAA mad and who care what religion they are.
Also As a souterner I dont have a clue about the day to day battles goin on in the North but I hate to see sport being divisive isntead of inclusive

Fishermantom (Limerick) - Posts: 569 - 14/05/2013 13:27:21    1383693

Great post snuff.
Time for people to move on, while I am Irish to the bone I never sing the anthem at a match, only ever the last line gets sung by me, and as all people know. That line us
COME ON THE ROYAL. :)

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 14/05/2013 13:38:00    1383711

While of course no one should deny the GAA's roots, you can not live in the past. The GAA has evolved of over many years and is now basically just a sporting organisation with only a few a political symbols left - mainly names of clubs...etc. it's time to leave these behind. Times have changed and its important that the GAA continue to be at forefront of the community. Would it really be a big deal for clubs to be named after the area they represent? Happens in every other sport

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4649 - 14/05/2013 13:50:09    1383727

I firmly believe that if Croke Park tried to force the hand of Northern GAA clubs in changing their names to what many on here perceive as less contentious shall we say, then there could be an irrevocable split in the organisation, which would inevitably weaken its position in Irish society. Something of a 'Provisional' GAA of sorts. Frankly it wont happen, the clubs in East Tyrone won't buy it and I'm damned sure that would be the position the rest of the six counties.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 14:35:40    1383773

People said the same with the opening of Croke Park, PSNI team... etc. the GAA is moving on , regardless if some clubs in certain areas try and drag their heals. Time to name teams after their area!

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4649 - 14/05/2013 15:13:58    1383821

Those were issues of political expediency, we are talking identity here BM, won't happen.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 15:22:54    1383834

Ulsterman:
"you can't put wings on a fish and call it a bird" - pure poetry, Simon and Garfunkel would be proud of those lyrics.

muffin (Antrim) - Posts: 128 - 14/05/2013 16:40:47    1383927

Why should clubs not be named after historical figures? Are we so immature or lacking in confidence as a people that we feel the need to deny our own history for fear it might offend someone? And on that note, why in the name of heaven would we be bothered to try and avoid insulting someone who is ready to take offence at our history? I'm thinking someone who dislikes Irish history to that extend shouldn't really be hanging around with Irish people. No BM, what you are suggesting is PC thinking that asks for the majority to deny their own history in an attempt to appease some unidentified "other" who in all likelihood would just find something else to be offended about.

Any country would be proud of figures like Sarsfield (my personal favourite), Pearse, Wolf Tone, Fr. Griffin, etc. etc. Why should we whitewash them? Look at the French National Anthem La Marseillaise; it's not exactly shy about declaring what happens to the enemies of France, yet there isn't a single person in the world who'd deny that it is probably the best, most rousing anthem going. Would you ask the French to change it? Would you want them to?

Similarly the Unionists have their own heroes; King Billy, Edward Carson, the Enniskillin Dragoons, the Apprentice Boys, Cu Chulainn (JOKE!). No one would ask, or expect them to drop those figures from the history or sense of identity; and I pity the fool that would try!

Rather than looking for a country where we all deny our past in order to avoid offending anyone, we should be working towards a modern republic that encorporates and facilitates all traditions, beliefs, faiths and groups that live on this island.

Anyone for a game of cricket?

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3150 - 14/05/2013 16:52:59    1383955

Leave existing GAA clubs alone!

New clubs that are small in numbers open now and again here in Dublin set up by just a few lads: 'Realt Dearg', 'Na Gaeil Óga' and the likes, with just one adult team and try to expand!

The last 'Nolan Show' I watched was about the 'Maze Prison' site and the absolute war over what to do with it as some people see it as being a shrine to the hunger strikers if cells are not demolished and all that (please dont get into that here), but the vast majority of viewers texting in wanted to see it turned into a national stadium probably with ancillary pitches etc.

I believe that the GAA could make its first tentative steps into the unionist community if its provided the backing for a club which is totally devoid of flags, symbols, anthems, historic icons...(The GAA version of an 'Educate Together' school), where nothing is sacred only 'the games'!!!
I believe such a project would be outstanding and more acceptable if fronted by the GAA team of the:
PSNI,
NI Fire & Rescue Service,
Royal Irish Regiment,
Irish Guards Regiment,
BA Shinty Team.
(I believe there was even a regiment based in the north before who took to learning Gaelic football from Royal Irish Regiment lads).
Such teams demonstrate to the Unionist community that it can be just about the 'game' and not symbols and flags.
The other side of the coin is, cut loose and let them name a club in their own area after Edward Carson or whoever....live and let live so, and who cares once a team is fielded!!
The Queen has even visited Croker and this can be a massive selling point!

Such a project financed by Croke Park, fronted by the above services could even yield a massive social dividend in terms of less vandalism of GAA grounds and racisim etc, if all sides of the community know that they are involved in the sport and their kids and community benefit from a set of GAA goal posts not being sawn down and the likes!

I think a club established and funded by the GAA which removed all symbols, names, language, etc, supported by PSNI, BA teams and the like could be an option for moderate unionists who appreciate the game but the whole 'nationalist thing' stops them making a leap of faith into being overtly supportive!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 14/05/2013 17:04:01    1383973

Some spurious logic going on here, to not name clubs after nationalists is not denying anything. If I walk home from work not waving a tri-colour and singing the anthem does it mean I'm denying them or being PC. No I'm just not doing them. Most people / clubs are comfortable enough in their ' Irishness' that they don't have to make a big point of it. It seems the obvious exception is in NI. It seems there is still a big divide, in the south the GAA is merely a sporting organisation, in NI it seems to be used as a way to prove you're 'Irish'. Maybe a split as someone mentioned is inevitable

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4649 - 14/05/2013 17:33:09    1384012

Spurious logic indeed: if it's "merely a sporting organisation" then who cares what they're called? There is no question but that the GAA is seen by many as a central plank of their identity; be it their parish, club, county or country, and central to that identity is their history. Main street Ireland has been taken over by multi-national chains, who while providing a service, have also robbed city centers of their unique identity. The only difference between downtown Galway, Dublin, Waterford or Cork is the floorplan. You are advocating the same for the GAA.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3150 - 14/05/2013 17:42:53    1384024

Should we removing certain associations from the GAA?

In my opinion, as the North is moving ever closer a Catholic majority (see census results below, 51% of school children [4 to 16 years old] were Catholic in 2011), a series of 'tipping point's will take place, as the balance of power levels. Think of the recent 'flegs' rioting in Belfast, as Unionists react in defiance to power sharing. Think of Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the British monarch, as northern Catholics step up to take control of the political institutions.

I think it is time to loosen the link between the GAA and certain associated institutions.

1) Is the GAA strong enough to stand on its own 2 feet without association with the Catholic Church? Yes.

2) Does the GAA have a strong enough identity that it doesn't need to define itself through hostilities to Britain (i.e. naming of clubs and grounds, singing of anthem)? Yes. This would have to be a voluntary measure though where clubs/parks have already been named.

3) I don't see anything wrong at all with the promotion of the Irish language in the GAA at all, nor music, dancing, singing, what ever else. These are our culture and they should be celebrated within and outwith. I'd be more concerned with those other cultures within our organisation, such as drinking, and gambling.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/dec/12/northern-ireland-census-national-identities-mapped

muffin (Antrim) - Posts: 128 - 14/05/2013 18:10:48    1384055

wondered is the British Anthem played before London games in Ruslip?

You're joking, Right?
Laoch Gael indeed

beal (Mayo) - Posts: 1388 - 14/05/2013 18:29:49    1384070

wondered is the British Anthem played before London games in Ruslip?
You're joking, Right?
Laoch Gael indeed
beal
-------------

No Im not joking! Why should I be joking?.....Please dont ruin a good discussion with this!

I stated, the US Anthem is played for NY games played there!.....Identical situation in Ruslip for London games, yet doesnt seem to have British Anthem played!
Maybe it is!....I dont know!.....I dont know why it shouldnt be played seeing as US is played in NYC!....nobody has stated whether it is or not!....I have a feeling its not!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 14/05/2013 18:53:11    1384084

Just a point regarding the playing of National Anthem(s) before big games.. I've been saying for years that if the powers that be really see the need to hush an already over-excited and, let's face it, in a lot of cases inebriated crowd to play a piece of music; then why not make them songs/tunes relevant to just the counties involved??... And, for what it's worth, in my own counties case I certainly wouldn't be choosing "The Fields Of Athenry", for all too obvious reasons...

streaker (Galway) - Posts: 513 - 14/05/2013 19:25:35    1384100

Muffin, the days of some fat Archbishop from the midlands throwing the ball in whilst the local chapter of Fianna Fail and assorted dignitaries watch on from the best seats in the house are long since gone. I have to disagree with the idea that we slowly peel away the names of our national heroes because some people may find them offensive, we owe no one an apology for who we are or our history of resistance against a foreign oppressor who sought to extinguish the very Irishness that the GAA fought to preserve. There is much more at stake here than a matter of names, every bit as much as there is with the issue of flags, personally I would fight tooth and nail to preserve what we have.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 19:50:57    1384117