Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 5919

1356578 Martin McHugh wrote the best article I have seen on this. He said it is change for the sake of change and a reason for some 'GAA committees' to justify their existence. There are too many of these committees being set up at the behest of a hostile media who seem to be setting ALL the agenda within the GAA now regarding playing styles and discipline. It now appears that when certain journalists say jump Croke Park says "How high?" in respect of these things. Martin McHugh said it will also have a drastic effect on smaller club sides who are having enough trouble as it is fieldng 15 players in the current economic climate. What about a junior who turn up with 15 players and have 1 or 2 put off for a black card and cannot replace them?
Gaelic football will now be a non contact hybrid basketball game and I would go as far to say that many of these changes have been brought in to satisfy a certain agenda of some. How many changes have been brought into Gaelic football since Armagh, Tyrone and Donegal started to win All Ireland's? There is no doubt that an element within the media have called for change within Gaelic football to put a stop to the physical side of the game which they perceive Ulster teams to have an advantage over others. I can't recall these same individuals calling for change when Dublin and Kerry were battering each other in the 70's and 80's, when Meath and Cork knocked lumps out of each other in the late 80's amd when Meath and Mayo punched each other all over the pitch in 96.

Forgetting where any county is located for a minute, do you think that the way the game is going with this type of cynical fouling (which every county does) should be left to take its own course.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 26/03/2013 15:23:14    1356718

I can see it now, full back comes running out with the ball, gives a pass and then runs right into Murphy or Brogan or Gooch looking for a black card.

Who would want to be a referee in these circumstances & don't say that teams won't plan for it because they will.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 26/03/2013 15:29:14    1356724

Just wondering if it is such a penalty just to have a player substituted by another player and this can happen 3 times without someone being actually sent off and a team being down to 14? Seems very complicatied. Wouldn't a 10 minute sin-bin like they have in rugby not be more effective as a team is down to 14 straight away which to me would appear to be a more appropriate type of punishment?

tommy k (Galway) - Posts: 3470 - 26/03/2013 15:37:18    1356734

AthCliath
County: Dublin
Posts: 1664

1356718 Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 5919

1356578 Martin McHugh wrote the best article I have seen on this. He said it is change for the sake of change and a reason for some 'GAA committees' to justify their existence. There are too many of these committees being set up at the behest of a hostile media who seem to be setting ALL the agenda within the GAA now regarding playing styles and discipline. It now appears that when certain journalists say jump Croke Park says "How high?" in respect of these things. Martin McHugh said it will also have a drastic effect on smaller club sides who are having enough trouble as it is fieldng 15 players in the current economic climate. What about a junior who turn up with 15 players and have 1 or 2 put off for a black card and cannot replace them?
Gaelic football will now be a non contact hybrid basketball game and I would go as far to say that many of these changes have been brought in to satisfy a certain agenda of some. How many changes have been brought into Gaelic football since Armagh, Tyrone and Donegal started to win All Ireland's? There is no doubt that an element within the media have called for change within Gaelic football to put a stop to the physical side of the game which they perceive Ulster teams to have an advantage over others. I can't recall these same individuals calling for change when Dublin and Kerry were battering each other in the 70's and 80's, when Meath and Cork knocked lumps out of each other in the late 80's amd when Meath and Mayo punched each other all over the pitch in 96.

Forgetting where any county is located for a minute, do you think that the way the game is going with this type of cynical fouling (which every county does) should be left to take its own course

Do you not think the referees had enough powers to enable them to deal with "cynical play" ( the new buzz words) as they were ? Take Finian Hanleys foul for example which was the first foul in the video shown at Congress. Did he get a red card for that foul ? If he did then what is the problem ? If he did not then why so ? It was a red card offence .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 26/03/2013 15:41:00    1356741

MuckrossHead
County: Donegal
Posts: 780

1356724 I can see it now, full back comes running out with the ball, gives a pass and then runs right into Murphy or Brogan or Gooch looking for a black card.

Who would want to be a referee in these circumstances & don't say that teams won't plan for it because they will.

Managers will have to stand up and be counted on this also,

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 26/03/2013 15:45:41    1356745

AthCliath- wonder would you's have won Sam in 2011 after a Dublin player completely tore in Karl lacy in semi's and subsequently the 2012 player of the year was substituted.

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 26/03/2013 15:57:06    1356755

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 2499



Do you not think the referees had enough powers to enable them to deal with "cynical play" ( the new buzz words) as they were ? Take Finian Hanleys foul for example which was the first foul in the video shown at Congress. Did he get a red card for that foul ? If he did then what is the problem ? If he did not then why so ? It was a red card offence .

Something had to be done , whether the black card works or not who knows, this is about trying to shift the focus on team tactics as much as anything.
ye cant say there is not a different focus on how to win a gaa match now and not for the better. again i include every county in this.
Its about not giving the advantage to the team that just wants to be negative.
though personally i would have rathered the sinbin.
or another offical monitoring the game focusing solely on the black card offences.
I agree its gonna be hard for the ref to see things going on behind him.
officals on the sideline i find are the worst for passing the buck.they are gonna have to take responsibility also.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 26/03/2013 16:00:24    1356758

Ulsterman,
Here was me thinking the whole black card thing was designed to clean up the cynical fouling in football when in fact its a conspiacy by free state partitionists to stop Ulster teams winning!Thanks for clearing that one up.

juniorbsub (Wexford) - Posts: 646 - 26/03/2013 16:08:09    1356770

Ciaran Whelan endorsing the black card, nice to get a laugh
of a tuesday afternoon:)

LovelyBall (Louth) - Posts: 352 - 26/03/2013 16:17:31    1356782

This is for the good of football. Real football. All you have to do is look at what counties the nay-sayers are from and it tells you everything.

Floops (Dublin) - Posts: 1623 - 26/03/2013 16:34:27    1356800

juniorbsub, the funny thing is, the fact that ulsterman makes this claim means that he himself is the one who is classing northern team as the most cynical in the country. The irony of that point always seems to go over his head...

greengrass, I agree, the hanley foul was a nailed on red card. This is where the black cards are going to go wrong, if they do go wrong. The real cynical stuff that is going unpunished was not on that video clip at all. Systematic fouling out the field is the big issue. Teams tactically fouling when they lose a kick out and then getting 13 men behind the ball is what is killing football. The type of fouls that were on the clip were as plain as day, nailed on fouls, many of which deserving a yellow card. Ok maybe some of the blocking of runs didnt deserve yellows, but surely blocking a guys run isnt as bad as this 'always foul' spoiling tactic we are seeing? Also, I think we need to see a distinction between a team tactic of blocking runs, and one guy doing it because he is tired/lazy. The team tactic should be cracked down on more severely because it is far more calculated.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 26/03/2013 16:45:32    1356815

1356718 Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 5919

1356578 Martin McHugh wrote the best article I have seen on this.

Really?

He said it is change for the sake of change and a reason for some 'GAA committees' to justify their existence.

Plenty of bias is that. Rubgy tackling in Gaelic Football is arguably an excellent reason for change.

There are too many of these committees being set up at the behest of a hostile media who seem to be setting ALL the agenda within the GAA now regarding playing styles and discipline.

Is this just an anecdotal statement or has he anything to back this up?

It now appears that when certain journalists say jump Croke Park says "How high?" in respect of these things.

What journalists? Where is the grounds for this statement?

Martin McHugh said it will also have a drastic effect on smaller club sides who are having enough trouble as it is fieldng 15 players in the current economic climate. What about a junior who turn up with 15 players and have 1 or 2 put off for a black card and cannot replace them?

More anecdotal nonsense! Give us reasoned points with evidence please, not mere opinion!

Gaelic football will now be a non contact hybrid basketball game and I would go as far to say that many of these changes have been brought in to satisfy a certain agenda of some.

Is is arguably currently such a game. A simple statistical analysis would most likely reveal teams hand pass way more than foot pass!

How many changes have been brought into Gaelic football since Armagh, Tyrone and Donegal started to win All Ireland's?

I don't know, how many???? List these changes?

There is no doubt that an element within the media have called for change within Gaelic football to put a stop to the physical side of the game which they perceive Ulster teams to have an advantage over others.

More bias, who are these elements in the media. What evidence do you have to support such claims?

I can't recall these same individuals calling for change when Dublin and Kerry were battering each other in the 70's and 80's, when Meath and Cork knocked lumps out of each other in the late 80's amd when Meath and Mayo punched each other all over the pitch in 96.

Some of them probably we're not born. But from the video's i've seen there was uproar after the 83 Dublin/Galway All Ireland final.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 26/03/2013 17:03:46    1356836

AthCliath
County: Dublin
Posts: 1666

1356758 Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 2499



Do you not think the referees had enough powers to enable them to deal with "cynical play" ( the new buzz words) as they were ? Take Finian Hanleys foul for example which was the first foul in the video shown at Congress. Did he get a red card for that foul ? If he did then what is the problem ? If he did not then why so ? It was a red card offence .

Something had to be done , whether the black card works or not who knows, this is about trying to shift the focus on team tactics as much as anything.
ye cant say there is not a different focus on how to win a gaa match now and not for the better. again i include every county in this.
Its about not giving the advantage to the team that just wants to be negative.
though personally i would have rathered the sinbin.
or another offical monitoring the game focusing solely on the black card offences.
I agree its gonna be hard for the ref to see things going on behind him.
officals on the sideline i find are the worst for passing the buck.they are gonna have to take responsibility also.

I'm not so sure something had to be done AthCliath other than enforce the current rules. Hanley should have been sent offf. The FRC produced a video but they did not say what happened each of the transgressors. Were any sent off ? Were any booked ? The FRC have used the buzz words "cynical play". Cynical play is nothing new. I remember the foul on MIckey Ned O Sullivan in the All-Ireland final of 1975. I remember the All-Ireland final of 1983. I remember the replay of 1988. Cynical play has always been there. The FRC also missed the most cynical aspect of modern day Gaelic football. There is far more diving today in football than ever before. That is a bigger problem than cynical fouling. Yet the FRC never mentioned it. It has been passed and it will be put in to operation.I feel referees had enough under the current set up to deal with cynical play. I feel sorry for all the players who will be carded in the wrong and who will see huge amounts of preparation destroyed by an unnecessary innovation and poor officiating. The black card would have been a great innovation had it been confined to abuse of match officials alone.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 26/03/2013 17:05:55    1356840

I am for the black card. Only because something has to be done to try to stop the tactical fouling. The argument against the black card implementation does not stand up for the reason of its potential weaknesses. It has to be seen in the context of the reason it is being brought in in the first instance. The alternative is more seasons of the same muck. If anyone is against the black card rule, please offer a better option.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3852 - 26/03/2013 17:39:54    1356872

Ciaran Whelan and Jason Sherlock have also this week expressed concerns at how this black card will be implemented and the certaintity that it will hinder referees and leave them open to more abuse BECAUSE it will be down to them and them only to interpret what is a black card offence and what is not. If a refereee misses something that constitutes a black card offence but is then called in by an umpire or linesman how can you then depend on their second hand view of an incident from 50/60 yards away? How can anyone with certaintity decide that some physical contact is deliberate or cynical and others are not; it is a very grey area and will leave officials open to a lot of criticism. Physical contact and tackling are important parts of sport but Gaelic football is now being diluted and we will definately have a netball/basketball game that a lot of people won't be interested in and which will leave spectators yawning in boredom. Martin McHugh is correct; this is the worst change ever to be introduced and will do a lot of harm.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9819 - 26/03/2013 17:53:49    1356886

GreenGrass

Agree completely with what you say.

And ironically, the black card will only make diving and feigning contact more prevalent.

As someone said earlier, picture the scene: a full back comes out with the ball, runs towards Michael Murphy, lays the ball off and then barges into him and hits the deck. The ref, following the ball, didnt fully see the incident but as he turns his head he sees the player hitting the ground after contact. The crowd go mad and the ref brings out the black card. Murphy is off for the rest of the game. A game-changer.

Heres another one. A player gets the ball ahead of his marker and has acres of space ahead of him. He takes off in a sprint with his marker chasing him. His marker ir right behind him harrying him and putting a hand on the shoulder. The player is able to stay on his feet but he is being fouled without question. Now the black card rule states "Deliberately pulling down an opponent" receives one. Does the player

a) stay on his feet and hope the ref gives a free
With the advantage rule he may hope that if he loses the ball that the ref will call it back for a free...but he might not! If it is a free, the opposition have a chance to flood players back and get their defence in place. What does the ref do? Its a cynical foul, but the player didnt go down so is it a black card?

b) Go down
A tackle from behind resulting in a player going to ground, surely a black card?

Which of these options looks better? Im not condoning the fouling at all but I see a trend towards soccer of players going to ground under any contact as the phrase "pulling down an opponent" is explicitly stated in the rules

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1433 - 26/03/2013 17:55:09    1356888

I've had enough, I had just got used to the Yellow and Red Cards and now the Black Card has got the Green Light. To make matters worse I just read that Ciaran Whelan thinks that the Black Card is a Grey area. Tis no wonder I'm Browned Off & feeling Blue. All we need now is Anthony Rainbow of the Lily Whites to throw his tuppence worth in, pure Comedy Gold.

corkcelt (Cork) - Posts: 4388 - 26/03/2013 18:29:53    1356906

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 5920

That was a much better argument. Reasoned without the bias. And i'll respond to it when i get a chance!

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 26/03/2013 18:46:09    1356913

Donegalman
County: All
Posts: 553

1356872
I am for the black card. Only because something has to be done to try to stop the tactical fouling. The argument against the black card implementation does not stand up for the reason of its potential weaknesses. It has to be seen in the context of the reason it is being brought in in the first instance. The alternative is more seasons of the same muck. If anyone is against the black card rule, please offer a better option.

Very simple. For the offences covered by the black card simply award a 21 yard free. For a cynical foul on a player straight through then a straight red as in soccer.
Yellow cards should also accumulate with three yellows getting the offending player a suspension.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 26/03/2013 18:53:46    1356917

Defo think cynical fouling in Gaelic Football needs to be curtailed. Remember Eoin Mulligans goal 2005. If Paddy Christie had just pulled him down then Tyrone would have got a free in and Dublin a yellow card. Likewise Dublins goal against Kerry in the 2011 Final, if Kerry had fouled Mc Menaman they would have conceded a free and won the All Ireland. The incentive is to foul.

So definitely need cards enforced. Don't think a black card is actually sufficient. In the above cases there is still an incentive to foul if its just a black card. I think stopping a goal should be a red card. Stopping a point a yellow.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 26/03/2013 19:17:13    1356934