Not sure if this has been mentioned already but surely there's an anomaly in the whole black card proposal. If a player receives a yellow card earlier in the game and he subsequently commits a black card offence, he will be subsitituted rather than receiving a second yellow. Therefore basically, if a player is on a yellow he is much better off in commiting a cynical foul rather than a genuine mistimed tackle.

I just feel this highlights how ill thought out the rule is. Refs need more help, not a rule which clouds the water further!

stringbean (Tyrone) - Posts: 134 - 24/03/2013 21:18:27    1355474

It's been a good point raised by many. If a player is on a yellow, a black card next is better for the team rather than a yellow. No reference was made to it in the motion, unlike more than 3 black cards and fourth player to receive a black card can't be replaced. With the black card on the way in, they only way they'll sort the anomaly is, if you're on a yellow and receive a black, you can't be replaced. Will they need an amendment to sort out that anomaly? If so it's the second big change which seems not to have been fully thought out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8969 - 24/03/2013 21:29:26    1355490

Rule 1.2(x) Official guide ammendment:

(d) To order off a player who commits a Cautionable foul/infraction and subsequently commits a cynical behaviour foul/infraction by showing him a black card, following by showing him a red card. Passed yesterday as well.. Hope that clears this up a bit.

kingpuck71 (Derry) - Posts: 691 - 24/03/2013 21:38:21    1355508

I'm surprised that this was passed at congress,while I totally agree that something needed to be done I think this will have a detrimental effect on our games.
I think we are going to lose some of the physicality,we all know there will be some awful decisions made because as many have eluded to here since the FRC was formed one of the biggest problems is inconsistant refereeing.
It should be a yellow card and a sin bin for 10 mins,the black card is no real advantage to the team that the foul was comitted on still playing against 15.
The impression I get is that the whole thing hasn't been properly thought out.

The mark and the clean pick up have me baffled also no reward for high fielding and surely the clean pick up would speed things up??????

DL (Donegal) - Posts: 210 - 25/03/2013 14:49:28    1355972

Having witnessed yesterday's foulfest between Donegal & Mayo, I am willing to give the idea a chance.

Initially I was not in favour & am still dubious, but anything would be better than what I saw yesterday.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2013 15:01:18    1355989

There were at least ten 'synical fouls' in the gemae between the Dubs and An Dún freisin. Looking forawrd to the new rule. Maigh agus Dún na nGall were cat yestreday. The new rule could effect these two counties big time.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 25/03/2013 15:07:54    1355997

doublehop
County: Kildare
Posts: 2911

1355240 If anyone hasn't seen it, the video that was shown at Congress and which must have swung the vote is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QBhikkHoNcg

I don't know how anyone could seriously argue against the black card after seeing that. Céad míle fáilte to the black card.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 25/03/2013 15:14:34    1356010

The big plus for me is in the coaching of kids in the future, coaches wont be putting as much emphasis on stopping a player (because of being penalised )and more on attacking(hopefully). something had to be done and thankfully this is a step in the right direction, off course their will bad decisions and wrong calls by refs when it comes in, but that happens anyway.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 25/03/2013 15:15:37    1356015

AthCliath
County: Dublin
Posts: 1658

1356015 The big plus for me is in the coaching of kids in the future, coaches wont be putting as much emphasis on stopping a player (because of being penalised )and more on attacking(hopefully). something had to be done and thankfully this is a step in the right direction, off course their will bad decisions and wrong calls by refs when it comes in, but that happens anyway.

Thats a good point. The game has developed and moved on significantly in recent years. But i think its true to say that in developing teams, some managers and players, have shown a total lack of regard for the rules of Gaelic Football. If the problems were contineously swept under the table we wouldn't have a game to follow! Rules must stay current and this at least should be a positive step.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 25/03/2013 15:49:45    1356048

That video clears things up a bit, I'd have no problem seeing players back carded for any of them tackles, but I will say that I could see the 'off the ball' tackle being a problem because its happens almost any time a player makes a pass and then looks for a return, especially backs moving forward from deep. I could also see players making a meal of 'off the ball' tackles where a player might stand his ground or instinctively hit a light enough late tackle, and the attacker jumping on the ground to get the player black carded.

CaisleanCnucha (Dublin) - Posts: 1379 - 25/03/2013 15:58:50    1356060

doublehop
County: Kildare


In the real world the refs will implement the laws with common sense.

optimism has no boundaries doublehop! Despite watching that video I still think the full back will rugby tackle the forward if he is through on goal. I would rather my full back be subbed and another player come on then to conceide a goal.

The rule might stop some of those stupid pulls and blocks around the middle but i still think yellow cards can do that if used correctly

white.n.blue (Monaghan) - Posts: 249 - 25/03/2013 17:25:00    1356121

It will be great to see incidents like those in the video be shown the black card.

However, you will rarely see fouls as clear-cut in your everyday game. What about a small tug from behind to slow up the play - its cynical and it lets the defence get back....but is it a black card offence? The rule states it is only for 'bringing a player to ground'. I'm worried it will lead to players going to ground under any contact, or maybe thats what is needed to stop the tugs from happening. But when we see a marquee player do a very slight jersey tug and the player over-exaggerate and go to ground resulting in a black card, no doubt we will have cries from everywhere that the ref 'ruined the game' and the player is a diver.

Look at Mark McHugh's tackle yesterday. It was high and it deserved a yellow card. Was it cynical? Hard to say with any degree of certainty. Its calls like these that might change a game either way and when it is hard to tell it puts a lot of pressure on refs.

In theory a great idea, and perfect for the obvious ones like in the video shown to congress. But when the water is a little muddier, then we will see the problems

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1433 - 25/03/2013 17:39:53    1356129

The difficulty with punishing "cynical" fouls is where the line is. Those examples shown in the video are very clearcut & easy, but many aren't. McHugh's challenge yesterday being a case in point. The player he challenged had stumbled slightly which made the tackle look worse than it was, but even then to punish McHugh for a "cynical" foul, the referee would need to have known what was in his mind when he went to make the tackle, Not a job I envy.

I can see lots of controversy looming.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 25/03/2013 18:07:40    1356153

Definitely against! How the hell is a ref supposed to make a split-second decision in the intensity of a championship battle as to whether a foul was cynical or not? If it is a borderline call, he will get abuse no matter what decision he makes. A Ref has enough on his plate without having to worry about implementing this bull***t rule.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 1037 - 25/03/2013 18:42:17    1356182

Gaillimh_Abu
County: Galway
Posts: 393

1356182 Definitely against! How the hell is a ref supposed to make a split-second decision in the intensity of a championship battle as to whether a foul was cynical or not? If it is a borderline call, he will get abuse no matter what decision he makes. A Ref has enough on his plate without having to worry about implementing this bull***t rule.

The refs wanted this brought in,so that must say something, off course their is gonna be the interpetation of this rule and their will be strange and inconsistent decisions by refs, but at least they have some sort of guidline when players start pulling back players and runs are being blocked off the ball, coaching will definetly change because of it.
Nobody is saying the ref will get it right a lot of the calls are definetly gonna be disputed, same way every decision now is disputed, its about the bigger picture .and not allowing this tactic become engrained in the game of GAA.
Fair play to the speakers who got up and spoke for the yes vote. instead of sticking their head in the sand and saying the ref should be allowed deal with it.
then nothing happens and slowly year after year winning becomes so important that we will only watch a few matches because of the tactics. (which every county will feel they have to employ just to be able to compete)

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 25/03/2013 19:09:20    1356200

I was against-------- but now that its here------------- or will be in 2014---------- I hope the refs use it and the players will learn pretty quickly as will those managers/coaches who have been getting away with the cynical stuff.

What I would also like to see refs pick up on was in one of the snoppets: the forward was grounded, the whistle went for the free then a defender picked up the ball and walked away to ensure no quick free: he should be getting a Yellow, at least but its very very seldom a ref has carded 2 players in any one instance like that.

KELF (Kildare) - Posts: 775 - 25/03/2013 19:15:44    1356207

So what happens if the corner forward for example receives the ball and heads for goal the back makes a legitimate tackle but in doing so the forward grabs his right arm with his left arm pulls it in and dives on to the ground back is black carded - anyone who has played the game at whatever level knows forwards who are pretty adapt at winning this kind of free are managers going to coach forwards to be at this kinda of thing to try and get lads sent off early?

TrueGrit (Dublin) - Posts: 42 - 25/03/2013 19:29:39    1356224

24/03/2013 21:38:21
kingpuck71
County: Derry
Posts: 639

1355508
Rule 1.2(x) Official guide ammendment:

(d) To order off a player who commits a Cautionable foul/infraction and subsequently commits a cynical behaviour foul/infraction by showing him a black card, following by showing him a red card. Passed yesterday as well.. Hope that clears this up a bit.

It clears that up alright thanks. The next question: if a player is sent off following a yellow card and then a black, this player obviously can't be substituted. If that team have two players already substituted due to black cards and another player get a black card. Can that player be substituted as one of the 3 black cards received already did not allow for a substitution due to the red?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8969 - 25/03/2013 19:39:12    1356233

as a forward i'm delighted. Might have a chance to actually travel with the ball without being dragged down or body slammed or tripped. No harm in trying this out anyway

Ros2013 (Roscommon) - Posts: 540 - 26/03/2013 11:23:55    1356495

Martin McHugh wrote the best article I have seen on this. He said it is change for the sake of change and a reason for some 'GAA committees' to justify their existence. There are too many of these committees being set up at the behest of a hostile media who seem to be setting ALL the agenda within the GAA now regarding playing styles and discipline. It now appears that when certain journalists say jump Croke Park says "How high?" in respect of these things. Martin McHugh said it will also have a drastic effect on smaller club sides who are having enough trouble as it is fieldng 15 players in the current economic climate. What about a junior who turn up with 15 players and have 1 or 2 put off for a black card and cannot replace them?
Gaelic football will now be a non contact hybrid basketball game and I would go as far to say that many of these changes have been brought in to satisfy a certain agenda of some. How many changes have been brought into Gaelic football since Armagh, Tyrone and Donegal started to win All Ireland's? There is no doubt that an element within the media have called for change within Gaelic football to put a stop to the physical side of the game which they perceive Ulster teams to have an advantage over others. I can't recall these same individuals calling for change when Dublin and Kerry were battering each other in the 70's and 80's, when Meath and Cork knocked lumps out of each other in the late 80's amd when Meath and Mayo punched each other all over the pitch in 96.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9819 - 26/03/2013 13:03:25    1356578