To be honest I dont like the way this approach to cynical fouling is shaping up. Going by the video that was put out I am starting to think that this approach might not stop the most cynical teams. For instance, the main focus on that clip was things like the finian hanley example. So the response to that will be, dont let any player get caught 1 on 1. We will just see teams crowd out their defence to stop this happening, and the game will be ruined as a contest in the process, which is exactly where we are now anyway.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/03/2013 14:27:17    1357978

I don't know master. I think this could open things up and have the opposite kind of effect. I don't think certain counties have enough players to be able to bring anyone else further back. Your suggestion would leave counties well and truely over reliant on good disipline - something that is causing teams to do rotatative cynical fouling as things stand. I think it would be easier for managers of thse negative footballing counties just to open up and play football. This should force all counties into playing good football.

Also, unlike what other people are saying here I do not think it is going to be difficult to implement. The black cards are very clear and it will be easy for refs I think. Also, managers will be telling their teams and training their teams not to rugby tackle and not to do the other other things you'd be black carded for.

The only stage of any game I envisage black cards are in the the last 5 minutes of games and if this does happen i'd hope that the GAA would return to this suue and find a solution for it.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 28/03/2013 14:45:32    1357994

Tried sin bin a few years ago ahould have stuck to it.
Black card does not penalise team for cynical fouling.
3 cards n next player out but to loose apayer for 10 minutes would have a better effect on discipline.

hound (Meath) - Posts: 234 - 28/03/2013 15:07:43    1358010

hound
County: Meath
Posts: 159

Black card does not penalise team for cynical fouling.

Are you serious?????

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 28/03/2013 15:12:21    1358015

Culann
Your giving a team 3 chances to commit cynical fouls, they loose a player but can replace him, lets call it enforced substitutions.
3 cynical fouls could definitely alter the course of a game.
And the way the game is gone with balnket defenses its easy to see a team being down to 13/14 men, being a few points up and finishing a game comfortably.

hound (Meath) - Posts: 234 - 28/03/2013 15:48:01    1358051

Culann
I don't know master. I think this could open things up and have the opposite kind of effect. I don't think certain counties have enough players to be able to bring anyone else further back. Your suggestion would leave counties well and truely over reliant on good disipline - something that is causing teams to do rotatative cynical fouling as things stand. I think it would be easier for managers of thse negative footballing counties just to open up and play football. This should force all counties into playing good football.

But that is my point culann, the worst teams arent really doing those fouls, dont forget hanley is from galway, they are not a cynical team. The reality is if that were donegal he wouldnt have needed to do that because they would have 3 or 4 lads back thereblocking up the goals, or the ball wouldnt have gotten in that far because they would have fouled the guy at the source with a low impact foul designed to be innocuous. i.e. the real problem with football today. I think, if that is what they are concentrating on as regards black cards, it will encourage teams to follow this example and nobody will leave themselves open to getting 1 on 1 to avoid getting a black card. Thus there will be no man to man play, just spoiling play, where the team actually trying to attack will be spoiled, crowded out and then counter attacked.

As regards the last 5 minutes, I actually dont have an issue killing a game to some extent, just not to ridiculous levels. It is hard to blame anyone for doing that. But to set up like that from the start of every game is just too much.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/03/2013 16:11:41    1358068

Master,

Will you get over this fixation you have with Donegal?

Neither does it do your credibility any good to constantly single out one team for cynicism and then go on to say that you have no problem with teams "killing" a game in the last 5 minutes. You are either for it or agin it.

Cynicsm is part & parcel of every sport at the top level. It's in soccer, rugby, basketball, golf. All any governing body can do is try to stamp out the worst excesses because to do otherwise is often to take the spark out of the game, a stage we are getting close to now.

I believe the black card will introduce a new level of cynicism with players feigning blocks to get top players from the opposition black carded which could completely turn a game on it's head. It puts far too much pressure on referees.

A simpler soloution would be to award a 21 yard free for those offences now covered by the black card with a similar punishment for players feigning. All players stay on the field, & any player giving away 21 yard frees will soon be shown the error of his ways by his bainisteoir.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 28/03/2013 16:41:53    1358095

MuckrossHead
Master,
Will you get over this fixation you have with Donegal?
Neither does it do your credibility any good to constantly single out one team for cynicism and then go on to say that you have no problem with teams "killing" a game in the last 5 minutes. You are either for it or agin it.

I have no fixation with donegal. The topic is cynical tactics, and they are the team who exhibit the type of tactics I am referencing, there is no conspiricy. I find your reference to credibility strange, considering you yourself are trying to excuse the cynical tactics of one county, namely your own.
Also, I stated an amount of low level cynicism in the last 5 minutes is something I can live with, just not to ridiculous levels. Frankly, it is the natural inclination of a team to protect their lead in the last few minutes and I am not going to be one of those who pretends to be shocked when that occurs. It doesnt mean I am for it,as you have tried to insinuate.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/03/2013 17:32:18    1358119

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6372

1358119
MuckrossHead
Master,
Will you get over this fixation you have with Donegal?
Neither does it do your credibility any good to constantly single out one team for cynicism and then go on to say that you have no problem with teams "killing" a game in the last 5 minutes. You are either for it or agin it.

I have no fixation with donegal. The topic is cynical tactics, and they are the team who exhibit the type of tactics I am referencing, there is no conspiricy. I find your reference to credibility strange, considering you yourself are trying to excuse the cynical tactics of one county, namely your own.

Nowhere have I ever excused cynical tactics, from Donegal or anyone else. If you have evidence that I have, then let's see it.

The point I was making is that there is only so much authorities can do against it. Every team will try to gain whatever advantage they can & stretch things to the limit. To believe otherwise is naive.

My problem with the black card is that it will introduce yet another level of cynicsm & therefore make the situation worse. I would be interested in what you think of my proposed soloution.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 28/03/2013 18:00:53    1358142

After reading through this thread and all people have been saying
about the new rule I've come to the following conclusions;

1.99.9% of people agree that something needs to be done about cynical fouling.

2.The black card while a move in the right direction seems to be throwing up a lot of
concerns with some brilliant points being made at how it may not work as desired
especially in the last few minutes of a game when a lead is being protected.

3.Based on point 2 I think most people would prefer the sin bin option with a yellow card
as 1 player less is worse to a team than a forced substitution.

4.A lot of posters can see the game becoming more defensive to avoid 1 on 1 situations.

I did find one point very interesting by Martin McHugh and I think the man hit the nail on the head
when he said it's a change for the sake of change,
I just hope that it gets trialed first before being fully implemented as we need to see how this works.

DL (Donegal) - Posts: 210 - 29/03/2013 13:50:21    1358428

Muckross:

I looked at a rerun of Mayo-Donegal. Now both did a share of blocking etc and AT was very silly but take just one player as an example & feel free to do a similar excercise:

MM got booked near the end but prior to that he twice rugby-tacked a Mayo runner who had just released the ball: Vey cynical & of course both should have been bookings especially the one Marty was watching very carefully. Had he been booked for the first would he have committed the second & the fould he was eventually booked for. With Black Card I strongly suspect he would not committ any of them ?????

DL:

As for Trialling the Black Card: How could it be done. Rule comes into force on 1/1/14 so unless McKenna, O'Byrne etc are run in Oct/Nov no opportunity for a trial.

Funny so many now support Sin Bin when ye could not get rid fast enough when it was an option & not a single club or county put it forward this year as an alternative to the Black Card.

I have said man times that Sin Bin was the way to go but it failed to get support from Clubs & their Delegates to County Boards & to Congress but I would welcome a move from yourself and others to bring it back. Not currently being a GAA member I have no opportunity to do so

KELF (Kildare) - Posts: 775 - 29/03/2013 19:45:17    1358629

TheMaster......

You are right, it COULD stop cynical fouling.

But I'm all for extending it to lads lying on the ground pretending to be injured. Black card them for timewasting.

Black card fellas who jump on the ground holding their faces when theres a coming together.

Also I'm for restrospective banning of players for dangerous play whether the ref gives a card or not.

I also advocate rescinding cards and sending offs after game.

Im for common sense.


Whats the problem with the black card system....??? Answer: Referees!

If refs cant handle "tackling", "yellow cards" etc........as it is.....HOW CAN THEY IMPLEMENT A NEW SYSTEM???

It comes back to referees showing bias, and trying to even things up in games etc. Tackles aren't defined in the GAA.....what the ref calls a free to one team isn't a free to the other team five minutes later. Dublin Tyrone in the league this year was a classic example. The Tyrone lads were pulling and dragging out of the Dublin players. And done it the whole game. Yet any contact from a Dublin back on a Tyrone forward was deemed a free.

Im not making this an anti-Dublin ref agenda thread....Im just highlighting the refs have been so poor in the GAA that can we trust them to implement NEW RULES....When they couldn't implement the old ones?

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 29/03/2013 20:34:04    1358657

DL
On point 4 your right, I think Paul Grimley said that defensive systems and blanket defenses are the only way of avoiding 1 on 1
situations where if player has misstimed going for ball he gives away a free so blanket defense cuts down the number of 1 on 1 situations
occurring,thus reducing chances of giving away scores or frees.
He wanted a clearly defined tackle.

hound (Meath) - Posts: 234 - 29/03/2013 21:40:59    1358690

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 5920

Ulsterman, i said i'd respond and this is it!

I accept there in an inherent problem in gaelic football regarding the interpretation and administration of rules regarding the tackle, the pick-up and the hand-pass. In that sense the referee's job is always harder and its arguably amplified in the area of the tackle. This arises due to the fact that the tackle in gaelic football is by and largely undefined. However, the issue with the black card is of a different nature as issues it seeks to address are NOT tackles. And that is a point that some people are all to happy to dismiss. Pulling a player down and third man 'personal/professional' fouls, for the want of a better term, are imo activities not sufficiently catered for in the GAA rule book as if they were there is no rational means by which they would be so prevalent. Extending that, a team can easily rise above the rules to prevent another team from playing and that is a culture that has become ingrained in football from club to county. And it is nationwide as i've seen it anywhere i've travelled. And i'd also argue that it is simply wrong. Its wrong to cheat to win, and its wrong to introduce people into a game where cheating is acceptable.

The issue of referees not being able to deal with the black card is a valid if not overstated case in my view. Its valid as there is genuine issues regarding its application and potential for abuse through cheating and rotation. However its possibly overstated as the fear factor surrounding any new rule probably is not justified. The black card rule is actually very simple, and the indiscretions that cause it are very clear. I also think its a cop out if not plainly unreasonable to suggest that just because one is worried about a rule it should not be implemented. Its as bad as saying i agree, have no worries, therefore it should be implemented. Essentially the rule must make sense, it must be supported, it must address an area of chief concern and it must be workable. I think the consultation process and the arguments put forward tick all those boxes. If they don't thats fair enough but i've yet to read an argument that makes genuine sense why cynical fouling should not be addressed within our games. I've read some decent and fair points regarding the fears surrounding the back card but least not forget that when the idea of the sin-bin was put forward it was hugely unpopular. Also, there are many including myself who feel that the black card doesn't go far enough. Yet, it is a start.

The issue relating to physical contact is a wider issue within the game and is something that appears to be in flux as time goes by. I think in 30 odd years we've gone from a game that was no holds barred, where common assault was tolerated, to one that has become methodical, hand pass orientated and all the more professional in set-up. The predominance of the hand pass results in a far greater number of fouls as the amount of contact is significantly increased. But that is a separate issue as it addresses an area that is fundamental to football being the legal tackle. Black card offenses are of a different nature as the are by no means legal and in that sense have nothing got to do with an argument based on the loss of physicality.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 30/03/2013 14:07:07    1358803

KELF
County: Kildare
Posts: 714

1358629
Muckross:

I looked at a rerun of Mayo-Donegal. Now both did a share of blocking etc and AT was very silly but take just one player as an example & feel free to do a similar excercise:

MM got booked near the end but prior to that he twice rugby-tacked a Mayo runner who had just released the ball: Vey cynical & of course both should have been bookings especially the one Marty was watching very carefully. Had he been booked for the first would he have committed the second & the fould he was eventually booked for. With Black Card I strongly suspect he would not committ any of them ?????

No issue at all with the authorities cracking down on cynical fouling, I hate it with a passion, my problem is that I think that the black card will have teams targeting star players from other teams & trying to get them black carded by running into them claiming blocks. It also adds another layer of complexity to the game & puts huge responsibility on the referees. What ref is going to black card Murph, Brogan or Gooch in the first couple of minutes of an All Ireland final unless he is 120% sure of his ground in the knowledge that it will be the main talking point of the game.

The reason we have cynical fouling is to try to stop the opposing team scoring, so the obvious answer is to award a 21 yard free with yellow cards & red cards for serious or repeat fouling. I also believe that a yellow card should earn a one match suspension as opposed to the present situation where a yellow card means nothing. A red should mean a three match suspension. This puts less pressure on the ref as it has less of a game changing effect & any player offending would soon be shown the error of his ways by his manager!!

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 30/03/2013 14:28:02    1358808

KELF
County: Kildare
Posts: 719

DL:

As for Trialling the Black Card: How could it be done. Rule comes into force on 1/1/14 so unless McKenna, O'Byrne etc are run in Oct/Nov no opportunity for a trial.

Funny so many now support Sin Bin when ye could not get rid fast enough when it was an option & not a single club or county put it forward this year as an alternative to the Black Card.

I have said man times that Sin Bin was the way to go but it failed to get support from Clubs & their Delegates to County Boards & to Congress but I would welcome a move from yourself and others to bring it back. Not currently being a GAA member I have no opportunity to do so


I would suggest trying it properly in the McKenna,O Byrne cups etc. and the leagues first,review the pros and cons of the system over the year and if it works take it in for all competitions in 2015.
Other proposels at congress such as the mark,sin bin and the clean pick up were tried before in the league so at least people knew what to expect if these rules came in,which I still can't believe were not passed given what was but thats not here nor there,we are going into the black card blind thats all i'm getting at.

DL (Donegal) - Posts: 210 - 03/04/2013 12:36:19    1360195

I predict this will go the same way as every other "crackdown" of the last 30 years. Refs will take it somewhat seriously in the first few weeks of the championship and as a result there will be a massive outcry from players and managers. The GAA will not back up the refs, who will then start to "relax" their interpretation of the new rule. By the time the championship is in full swing, the black card will be forgotten about and it will be business as usual. Remember when 6 players were sent off in a first-round Leinster championship match a few years back? The ref was simply following clear directions from the GAA on their "strict" new policy regarding yellow cards for all personal fouls. He was crucified for this by managers, players and the media. If the GAA had stood by him at the time, teams would have quickly got the message and would have cleaned up their act. Instead the ref was hung out to dry and that was the end of the new clampdown on persistent fouling. There was a similar outcome in the eighties after four players were sent off in a railway cup game for what were perceived as minor offences. Why would it be any different this time? As soon as big-name managers and players start complaining loudly enough, the GAA will forget about this rule too.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 1037 - 03/04/2013 13:23:19    1360223

does anybody else think this may start players diving more trying to get the other team a blackcard?

tic_for_tac (Meath) - Posts: 151 - 06/04/2013 16:43:04    1361959

Weren't the new rule changes supposed to be about limiting the hand pass in football? It seems everyone just totally forgot about that and the focus was switched to the introduction of the black card. Cynical fouling has been a problem though. One thing that got to me was players stopping other players making a run after they laid off the ball, usually using a raised arm to the chest area. I was happy Armagh had the success they had, but they were pretty bad at that. However, with emigration etc...if big name players are put sitting on the bench for a cynical foul after 20 minutes it might be detrimental to the game. It will lead to more controversy and stoppages too. So I'm against it overall. The most disappointing thing for me was the committees backing away from the hand pass restriction proposals, which were a widely talked about topic until only recently. I guess I'm in the minority with having a problem watching basketball in Croke Park? OK.

offalyfaithful (Offaly) - Posts: 120 - 08/04/2013 13:26:49    1363077

MuckrossHead
Nowhere have I ever excused cynical tactics, from Donegal or anyone else. If you have evidence that I have, then let's see it.

But by trying to find excuses for donegal, you are by extension trying to excuse their cynical play..


The point I was making is that there is only so much authorities can do against it. Every team will try to gain whatever advantage they can & stretch things to the limit. To believe otherwise is naive.


Yes they will. But we can bring in rules to remove the possibility of that happening to the extent that it is happening at the present.


My problem with the black card is that it will introduce yet another level of cynicsm & therefore make the situation worse. I would be interested in what you think of my proposed soloution.

But in doing that it also removes a large amount of cynicism that exists already, therefore it is helping the game. What you are saying is like saying we cannot introduce legislation for drugs in this country because people might try to cheat that legislation, but it is still better than having no legislation at all isnt it?! It is the same avoidance tactic that gets wheeled out time and again, 'if the alternative isnt totally infallible, we cant do it'. The reality is it is an improvement in an area that needs to be improved.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 08/04/2013 14:31:55    1363162