I think Horan is looking for excuses here somewhat.. they didn't lose the AI because of the hype surrounding Donegal, they lost it because they decided to put Kevin Keane on Michael Murphy.

In 2001, Meath were hyped up just as much before they played Galway. How did that go again? Eh.. yeah.

RoyalClass (Meath) - Posts: 790 - 08/01/2013 21:31:40    1315619

ruanua, I would say that what brolly did went beyond mischief-making. I accept that a few barbs during the halftime show is par for the course, even the mcdonald swedish maid thing, although a bit personal for my taste, I would accept that was more for entertainment and didnt really affect the football being played. Attempting to affect the game is a different story, particularly when the thing he was claiming mayo were guilty of was something the opposition had themselves fine-tuned into an art form, and in comparison mayo's version was an amateurish attempt. When you consider that brolly was falling over himself to praise that same team all year, tactical fouling and all, you start to ask what his motivations are. Personally, I feel they should get rid of him and get Peter Canavan. He is a far better analyst whose interests do not involve using football to promote himself. I actually think the program would benefit from it.

GateKeeper, why would I condemn mayo when I amnt condemning donegal? Furthermore, why are you condemning mayo and not donegal?


DL17, I have never seen anyone get a straight red card for a high tackle like the one on mchugh, or for a shoulder after the ball had gone like the one on lacey. So how they can both be red cards is beyond me.

As for your point about 'brilliant defending', I do no consider the ethos of 'every time you lose a kickout foul the man and get back behind the ball' as brilliant defending. It is no mre brilliant that the ethos of 'dont let a man in for a goal when the opposition need goals', in fact it is far more cynical. Yet mayo get panned for the latter and donegal get away with the former. In fact the more synical example gets labelled as 'brilliant defending'!

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 09/01/2013 10:50:27    1315698

Themaster

As I said previously I can see why Horan would make such comments
It's in his and his team's interest but without a shadow of a doubt his comments about the media influencing officials is highly hypocritical
Considering the stance and article he was involved with in the build up to the Dublin game
On the point of Joe Brolly influencing officials by using the media. I agree with you... he did target Mayo. Just like Horan targeted Dublin.
If it's good enough for Horan to use as a weapon, then Brolly is perfectly entitled to give his own opinions in the build up to a major game in a similar fashion
Seemingly it's ok for Horan to sell misinformation about certain refs?
Come on now - fair play you're obviously a loyal fan but it's time to acknowledge a few home truths and man up a little bit. To not accept ones faults is a terrible weakness in a man.
Your own reluctance to even acknowledge the fact that Horan used similar media influencing tactics is what makes your own point against Brolly so weak IMO.
It's all right to sell "misinformation" if you're wearing a Mayo jersey?
The only difference is that Horan was factually incorrect regarding his own article, which was refuted by the ref in question. While Joe Brolly published the stats to back up his article
He's also far from the only man to highlight Mayo's tactics against Dublin.
Are all these men out to get Mayo?
Why just pick on Brolly?
Because there's a fair few more lads to point the finger at going by your own logic
At the end of the day you weren't good enough but its 2013 now. Time to shut everyone up and have something real to celebrate
Rather than celebrating Horan's weak excuses.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 09/01/2013 11:18:55    1315727

Few simple things Beelzedub.
First off, I have yet to see it proven that McQuillan didnt referee in house for dublin. In fact I have very recently heard a fellow ref say it did happen. Where is this proof that it is in fact untrue? I actually think horan was right to point this out, if it was true. McQuillan was getting a lot of dublin games at the time. In contrast with the brolly example, mayo were not just as guilty as dublin of the same thing, assuming it is true abviously, therefore his critisism wasnt one sided.
Secondly I dont have an issue with brolly mentioning mayo using tactical fouling, if he had also mentioned that donegal use it also. That would be fair enough. Look at the foul count in the final, donegal had more fouls but less in scorable positions, just like the kerry game before it. Watching the games you will see that they foul the man every time they dont win the ball on a kickout and get back behind the ball. They kill all potential scoring opportunities before they become opportunities. They are actually the masters of tactical fouling. Im not trying to fault them for it, that is what they do and fair enough, the point is the article totally ignored this while vilified the opposition who were in fact less accomplished at doing what he was complaining about!
Finally, the difference between the two is this, horan is a manager, we know who he is going to be rooting for. In the same way that if mcguiness had come out and said what brolly said it would be taken with a pinch of salt. They are expected to fight their own corner. Brolly is supposed to be one of the leading analysts in the gaa. He is supposed to speak for the good of the game, yet he deliberately came out with a very one sided version of events in an attempt to vilify one side over the other. The reality is that is unbecoming of a man in his position and brings his role into disrepute.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 09/01/2013 12:24:12    1315763

I agree with the master regarding donegal and their tactical fouling prowess. However, using the same logic of not having any proof that McQuillan didn't ref the in house games for the dubs, where is the proof that Brolly intended to influence the ref and/or indeed succeeded. It's all just supposition!

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 09/01/2013 12:48:27    1315777

Sure to be honest
Either way. The result stays the same
all the best

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 09/01/2013 13:01:01    1315780

The only problem with Mayo's "tactical fouling" is that they are not as good at it YET as Donegal. I don't agree that Donegal were by far the best team last year or that they would have won the all-ireland regardless. Cork had the beating of them and there was nothing Donegal could have done about it. Cork beat themselves. and I expect Cork to win it in 2013.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5522 - 09/01/2013 13:01:21    1315781

Jackeen, first off I will say fair play regarding the donegal fouling tactics, I was surprised that more people didnt notice this to be honest with you. As regards your other comparison, I think those are two different things. With McQuillan, there is no great unknown, either he reffed the games or he didnt. From what I have read it was generally accepted that it happened. If you read the interview that horan gave at this time you will see that it is in fact the reporter that mentions A v B games to him in the first place. But now I have seen a few dub posters stating that this in fact never happened. I am assuming that something has occured in the meantime to prove that it didnt happen which would explain their posts, so I was just checking to see if I had missed something.
As regards brolly's intentions, I believe that the timing of the article and the fashion in which it was delivered would indicate that he made no intention of not influencing the game that is for sure. For me, that is like saying we cannot know the intentions of a guy in a ski mask with a gun in his hand walking into a bank. Something tells me he isnt going in to open an account!

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 09/01/2013 13:10:01    1315789

GateKeeper, why would I condemn mayo when I amnt condemning donegal? Furthermore, why are you condemning mayo and not donegal?
themaster



I'm not condemning anyone themaster, I am all in favor of the 'dark arts' myself
and commend Mayo for finally growing a pair! My point is that you have been
vociferously condemning 'great teams' (who play close to the edge) for years,
yet you are not condemning Mayo employing similar if not worse tactics!
Its a little bit hypocritical, don't you think?!

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 09/01/2013 13:11:49    1315792

Beelzedub, that is the thing people are getting confused with. The whole idea of, well no point talking about it now, its over. The reality is if we do that then he will do the same again this year. Maybe this time it will be dublin on the receiving end of his disingenuous behaviour. Maybe this time it will make a difference in the game, maybe that difference will cost them the all ireland...
One thing is for sure, it wont be donegal on the receiving end, regardless of their guilt, and that is the crux of the issue.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 09/01/2013 13:15:23    1315796

Fair enough themaster I just might be that little bit naive when if comes to thinking a ref can be swayed by a pundit or indeed by reffing in house games whether he did or didn't do it.

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 09/01/2013 13:18:51    1315799

if we are gonna get caught up on a journalists comments then we might as well forget about it, its irrelevant what Brollys intentions were, if your good enough ye use everything to your advantage, if ye won the match the arguement after could of been that brolly really got themayo lads going with his comments and really didnt help donegal at all.
This is making out that pundits have influence on referees that doesnt that exist, and before every match in the build up their views will be analysed to death for fear of influencing the referees.
Horan is starting to sound like Ferguson or wenger in moaning that this or that said had an outcome on the match , so it actually deflects from the managers performance on the day,
Think horan is doing a good job with mayo .but this is sour grapes.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 09/01/2013 14:11:40    1315835

s goldrick
County: Cavan
Posts: 1786

1315781 The only problem with Mayo's "tactical fouling" is that they are not as good at it YET as Donegal. I don't agree that Donegal were by far the best team last year or that they would have won the all-ireland regardless. Cork had the beating of them and there was nothing Donegal could have done about it. Cork beat themselves. and I expect Cork to win it in 2013.

What game were you watching? We should have beaten Cork by ten points. O'Neill's goal after fouling Eamon McGee was merely a consolation and masked Cork's inferiority to Donegal on the day. Sometimes I wonder if some posters on this website understand the game at all....

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9822 - 09/01/2013 14:54:15    1315863

jackeen, the thing with in-house reffing of games for me would be that it gives one team a chance to pick the brains of a ref than an opponent doesnt get. They see his style up close, what he doesnt like and what he will let go. We would like to think that all refs are the same but in truth we all know they are not. No one team should have an opportunity that the other team doesnt get. If McQuillan had gone to both teams and reffed a few games, gave a few pointers etc then it would be an even playing field, but that didnt happen. Furthermore, it must be said that (A) he didnt half get a lot of dublin games around that time and (B) there were a few decisions that seemed to go dublin's way in those games. It might all be a coincidence and probably was, but at the same time I dont think you can really blame someone in horan's position from raising the point.

AthCliath, I would disagree with that notion. His intentions are the very issue of the subject. Just because it ended up not affecting the game doesnt mean that we should ignore the fact that he tried his best to make it do so. It brings his position as an unbiased analyst into disrepute. That is like saying we should let people who try to rob a bank go free because they botched the job. I believe what he done is bad for the game and the wrong direction in which to bring the game forward.
As regards your comparison of horan with ferguson and wenger, I think this is actually precisely what he was doing, which is why I havent really focused on his own comments.

Gatekeeper, you have it wrong, I have never condemned any team who used such tactics. If that is what some teams need to do to win then fair enough. It is up to their opponents to counter then and the officials to examine what they are doing. My issue was more to do with those who then turn around and label those same teams who lacked the ability to win playing normal football and so needed these tactics in the first place, as 'great teams'. If they are great then why do they need to do it at all?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 09/01/2013 15:07:53    1315876

themaster

Fair enough but I think I'll choose not to get as worked up about it.
I dont mean that in a slagging sort of way, I just see it as not being very important.
I dont think we'll have to worry about being seen as incredibly cynical with tactical persistent fouling approach. We may put in the odd cynical tackle
but under Jim Gavin we'll never be branded as overly cynical. I have been watching his work for a umber of years. So I have no fear of Brolly making such comments regarding Dublin.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 09/01/2013 15:30:10    1315896

TheMaster


AthCliath, I would disagree with that notion. His intentions are the very issue of the subject. Just because it ended up not affecting the game doesnt mean that we should ignore the fact that he tried his best to make it do so. It brings his position as an unbiased analyst into disrepute. That is like saying we should let people who try to rob a bank go free because they botched the job. I believe what he done is bad for the game and the wrong direction in which to bring the game forward.
As regards your comparison of horan with ferguson and wenger, I think this is actually precisely what he was doing, which is why I havent really focused on his own comments.

so Brolly in your opinion is playing games with his use of words, Horan in your opinion is playing games with words. because Brolly should be neutral is where your problem lies,and neutral pundits should be monitored is that it,

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 09/01/2013 15:46:14    1315911

Some lads have too much time on their hands looking at the last few exchanges.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11651 - 09/01/2013 15:54:12    1315917

Beelzedub, that is the thing though, what were mayo so guilty of? Before the dublin game I would say they were no more or less cynical than kerry or dublin and I would say they were less cynical than tyrone and donegal. They then stopped dublin scoring the goals they needed by giving away frees for points instead, nothing ground breaking there, that has been going on for years in the gaa. Now they are supposed to be the biggest cheats around! Let me ask you this, do you believe that if the roles were reversed dublin wouldnt have done the same? Considering they done the very same thing against laois, it is hard to make that argument. That is the power of the press at work, and you dont have to be so much more guilty than everyone else to get the full force of it. If dublin kill off a game this year and are due to face donegal I can assure you that you will hear about it an awful lot, regardless of what donegal did in their previous encounter. Deserving doesnt come into it.


AthCliath
Sort of, except (A) I dont believe horan knowingly misrepresented the truth, (that is if what he said isnt true, I have seen nothing to make me think it isnt), and (B)horan wasnt guilty of the very thing he was complaining about, i.e. he didnt have mcquillan reffing mayo a v b games while he was bringing attention to it happening in dublin, where brolly was fully aware of donegal using the same things he was complaining about as regards mayo. Brolly knowingly put out a one sided account, he purposely done a poor job as an analyst to influence the game. This raises questions about his suitability as and attitude towards being in that role. If he wants to be a fanboy then fair enough, go do it, but he cannot then pretend to be a fair critic at the same time. The reality is no analyst worth his salt would want to have any affect on how a game pans out and the fact that he is willing to go so far as to try to manipulate an outcome is quite damning.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 09/01/2013 17:54:13    1315989

How come you werent on last year saying the same about spillane, some of his comments about donegal could definetly be construed as trying to influence the outcome of games. going by your logic on brolly.
Or are we now looking at it with tinted glasses.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 09/01/2013 18:09:47    1315999

Lockjaw
County: Donegal
Posts: 2586

1315863
s goldrick
County: Cavan
Posts: 1786

1315781 The only problem with Mayo's "tactical fouling" is that they are not as good at it YET as Donegal. I don't agree that Donegal were by far the best team last year or that they would have won the all-ireland regardless. Cork had the beating of them and there was nothing Donegal could have done about it. Cork beat themselves. and I expect Cork to win it in 2013.

What game were you watching? We should have beaten Cork by ten points. O'Neill's goal after fouling Eamon McGee was merely a consolation and masked Cork's inferiority to Donegal on the day. Sometimes I wonder if some posters on this website understand the game at all....

You would say that, wouldn't you. you are a donegal supporter. I am neutral. The Cork forwards had the beating of you. If counihan had to get his tactics right there would have been no stopping them. fact was the right ball wasn't played in to them often enough, the wrong option was taken, I think if youse meet them again this year they will beat yis.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5522 - 09/01/2013 19:34:55    1316029