Trying to put as honest a slant on this from a Mayo point of view:

1. Upon reading the article I would have rather such statements were left "in house" as one mayo poster put it. If James and the team feel hard done then keep it to themselves and use it to their advantage. There may be a bit of "Alex Ferguson" about this to try an influence refs like many managers do but its too early in the season for that.

2. I am surprised Horan would have come out with this. There is no harm in fighting for your team and county but this is smells of excuses.

3. I watched the final in full over Christmas for the first time - the match up's were wrong and changes should have been made earlier. Midfield was also slow and throwing up O'Se towards the end looked like desperation.

4. There was unfortunately cynical play from our players on display and the best team on the day won. Bottom line is, we never looked like getting a goal and most before the game agreed we needed one or two goals to win the game.

5. In truth the game was over after 10mins, which as mentioned was caused by poor management and of course mistakes from the players. The second goal nobody can deny was fierce unlucky from a Mayo point of view.

6. Donegal were the better team and looking at the game on TV, I felt they had another gear or 2 - Mayo didn't play to their full tilt either and that's what brings me hope for this year.

Overall the interview is a bit cringe-worthy I am sad to say and their is no point is papering over the cracks. We as a county wont be taken seriously by the media or anybody else until we win an all Ireland. It is up to James and the lads to bridge that gap.


Very well said. Im not at all sure why Horan would not keep this in house and use it to motivate the players when needed next year.

DLlegends (Donegal) - Posts: 503 - 08/01/2013 15:19:09    1315350

Culann
County: Dublin
Posts: 1384


Hold on a minute here. There is no smoke without fire. Joe Brolly in an anylist. Examine anything he said this year about Maigh Eo and think objectably about it. Regarding this issure which I assume Horan has a problem with, Brolly was dead right. You could not do proper fair anylasis of the game between Mayo and Dublin without highlighting the tactical fouling. Thats his job. This fair and proper anylaiss had an influence on the final an rightfully so. Tactical and synical fouling is destroying the game. As I said above, fair play Joe Brolly.


You wouldn't happen to be biased here Culann?

Maybe your right. Maybe it is Joe Brolly's job to call it as he sees it but if so than it is equally James Horan's job to protect the best interests of his players. I still think that some of the remarks Brolly made about Mayo last year, especially after the League Final, the All Ireland semi-final and Final were just plain nasty.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 08/01/2013 15:22:02    1315352

DLlegends
County: Donegal
Posts: 105

... Im not at all sure why Horan would not keep this in house and use it to motivate the players when needed next year.

His players know its waffle. Sure, Brolly got it spot on. The players knoe this. It was them that were doing the fouling.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 08/01/2013 15:24:09    1315354

Rua I agree the criticism of Donegal last year was OTT, I simply stated it was a total reverse this year, I also state it had nothing to do with the result of the game so I don't know why Horan has brought it up.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8445 - 08/01/2013 15:25:15    1315357

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 5426

RE: Donegal and Mayo cynical fouling.

Don't understand your point here.

Are you saying that you think that over the last year Donegal have displayed a more cynical approach to football than Mayo?

I think most people, not just Dubs because of Mayo's tactics in the semi, would not agree with that.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13819 - 08/01/2013 15:25:36    1315358

Here is an interesting article for those of you who lack the tools to recognise cynicism, or 'synicism' when they see it. Dont let it put you off though, by all means continue to watch football and learn about the game.

link

It is quite conclusive. Also, note to brolly, it does not address one finalist only.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 08/01/2013 15:31:17    1315362

roundball
County: Tipperary
Posts: 1742

You wouldn't happen to be biased here Culann?

Maybe I am biased but make up your own mind on it. Look back at what Brolly said about the tactical snical fouling and make up your own mind. He was able to back up what he said. At half time in AI final he referred to two Mayo players being carded in the first few minutes and said that Mayo had to ease off on the tactical fouling. Is that not what happened? Look, make up your own mind.

Maybe your right. Maybe it is Joe Brolly's job to call it as he sees it but if so than it is equally James Horan's job to protect the best interests of his players. I still think that some of the remarks Brolly made about Mayo last year, especially after the League Final, the All Ireland semi-final and Final were just plain nasty.

Maybe so, but if anyone takes what Brolly or Spillane take seriously they'd want to grow some skin. Flippin hell. I love reading Spillane and Brolly. I wouldn't miss an article from either of them on a Sunday. I'd probably only agree with Spillane 20% of the time and Brolly 80%. Its their job for flip sake. What do you want, them to sit in the studio in the summer and be boring and not say whats on their mind and what their honest view is of certain incidents. Had Mayo not tacticly fouled this year Brolly would not have come out and said anything about them.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 08/01/2013 15:32:07    1315364

Any negative criticism that Mayo may have received in the run up to the final pales into total significance compared to the reams of abuse Donegal have got over the past 2 years. Joe Brolly analysed the Mayo/Dublin game and was quite correct to point out how Mayo's tactical fouling contributed to their victory; much of the fouling went unpunished and Mayo used the dark arts to win that game. In previous years Mayo would probably have collapsed against Dublin through naiveity and inexperience; they didn't this time as they used every dirty tactic to beat the Dubs. Horan really needs to wind his neck in, he sounds like a Kerryman wheeling out every excuse and whinge except the truth that for 70 mins of the final Donegal were the far better side and should have won by at least 7/8 points.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9819 - 08/01/2013 15:49:43    1315382

DLlegends
County: Donegal
Posts: 106


Very well said. Im not at all sure why Horan would not keep this in house and use it to motivate the players when needed next year.
__________

It wouldnt be the first bad call he's made recently.

Beelzedub (Dublin) - Posts: 480 - 08/01/2013 15:51:23    1315384

MesAmis, first off fair play for actually trying to debate the subject. Both Culann and Belzeedub have cowered away from addressing the issue time and time. Take a read of the link I posted, it gives an insight into donegal's tactical fouling gameplan and compares it to mayo's. It also references joe brolly's comments and also the things he chose to ignore. It also has a reference to some of the new rules which is a little off topic but are no less insightful.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 08/01/2013 16:05:28    1315396

Culann
County: Dublin
Posts: 1386


Maybe I am biased but make up your own mind on it. Look back at what Brolly said about the tactical snical fouling and make up your own mind. He was able to back up what he said. At half time in AI final he referred to two Mayo players being carded in the first few minutes and said that Mayo had to ease off on the tactical fouling. Is that not what happened? Look, make up your own mind.


Maybe so, but if anyone takes what Brolly or Spillane take seriously they'd want to grow some skin. Flippin hell. I love reading Spillane and Brolly. I wouldn't miss an article from either of them on a Sunday. I'd probably only agree with Spillane 20% of the time and Brolly 80%. Its their job for flip sake. What do you want, them to sit in the studio in the summer and be boring and not say whats on their mind and what their honest view is of certain incidents. Had Mayo not tacticly fouled this year Brolly would not have come out and said anything about them.

And therein lies my problem. They are among the privileged few that get a wage from Gaelic Games and sadly they make it off the back of criticism of amateur payers who are training every night of the week to provide the rest of us with a spectacle. I don't understand they're mentality- very few of the other pundits or any of the hurling panel seem to deem it necessary. Sure they will analyse incidents and passages of play and may criticise a player or referees actions but Brolly and Spillane tend to make it personal. Anyway- we've drifted off topic.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 08/01/2013 16:08:52    1315400

Regarding the link to Paddy Heaney's Irish Examiner article provided by TheMaster RE: cynicism, or 'synicism'

How does he know of what Neil Gallagher's father would be dreaming of?
Why is there no mention of the x3 red card incidents that Mayo potentially should have received in the AI final?
What was Kerry's "deliberate foul" count in the AI Quarter Final?
How does he know that the tackles Mayo committed in the All Ireland Semi against Dublin were "mostly desperate"?

Paddy Heaney is using specific incidents to support his opinion/argument without using an holistic approach. He, like most other reporters, is a hack at the end of the day.

DL17 (Donegal) - Posts: 86 - 08/01/2013 16:12:11    1315404

I have not cowered away from you master. Just not interested in discussing Mayo with you. There's no point if you cannot at least be objective. Its you not the discussion! I wouldn't say you are liking this thread much. It preety much seems that its just you and maybe one or two others that agree with Horan's whinging. I have to admit I am enjoying this.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 08/01/2013 16:22:20    1315415

roundball
County: Tipperary
Posts: 1743


And therein lies my problem. They are among the privileged few that get a wage from Gaelic Games and sadly they make it off the back of criticism of amateur payers who are training every night of the week to provide the rest of us with a spectacle. I don't understand they're mentality- very few of the other pundits or any of the hurling panel seem to deem it necessary. Sure they will analyse incidents and passages of play and may criticise a player or referees actions but Brolly and Spillane tend to make it personal. Anyway- we've drifted off topic.

We have bit, but one last question. Should players not be critizised just because they are amateur? My personal view is that if players are pulling people down, blocking runners, feigning injury etc etc should be critizised whether they are amateur or not. If the players decde that they are going to get up to these tactics they deserve what they get. The game tself is more important then protecting amareurs guilty of destroying the game.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 08/01/2013 16:27:14    1315420

08/01/2013 15:31:17
TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 5431

1315362 Here is an interesting article for those of you who lack the tools to recognise cynicism, or 'synicism' when they see it. Dont let it put you off though, by all means continue to watch football and learn about the game.

link

It is quite conclusive. Also, note to brolly, it does not address one finalist only.
___________________________
Conclusive ? - Is this a link to a supreme court ruling or the ramblings of B list journo
we could all google some irrelant dribble - Here is another view that suggests that every team do it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0926/1224324425919.html#

And on the subject of Media and James Horan - It might be better for him to use the Media to advantage - Here is a 14 second clip that might have been worth watching before he put Keane on Murphy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E9nVHqWLx0

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 08/01/2013 16:34:16    1315426

DL17

How does he know of what Neil Gallagher's father would be dreaming of?

I reall dont think that this was the point I was talking about, do you? You can discount that one if you want.


Why is there no mention of the x3 red card incidents that Mayo potentially should have received in the AI final?

Because if you do something that is deserving a red card (3? Really? I would say 1 myself and even that one came after a foul should have gone the other way, but anyway) you arent exactly singing off the cynical fouling hymnsheet, are you? That would be just plain and simple fouling.


What was Kerry's "deliberate foul" count in the AI Quarter Final?

I dont know, what was their deliberate foul count at the weekend against IT Tralee? What was dublin's foul count against mayo? It isnt relevant to the point. I would hazard a guess it wasnt as high as Donegals though.


How does he know that the tackles Mayo committed in the All Ireland Semi against Dublin were "mostly desperate"?

The giveaway is when they take them down inside the scoring zone over and over again. Again, you wont exactly find that in 'cynical fouling for dummies'. May I ask, why were donegal's fouls almost entirely outside this scoring range? We know via the cassidy interview the lengths the team were going to in preperation for frees. it is fair to assume that the same preperation went in to when, where and how to give them away.


Paddy Heaney is using specific incidents to support his opinion/argument without using an holistic approach. He, like most other reporters, is a hack at the end of the day.

He is, although I would say he offers an opinion that is far closer to the truth than what brolly delivered at the 11th hour before the all ireland. At least he accepts that both team used these tactics.

Look dont get me wrong, I hold no grudge with donegal, they set themselves up and got the job done, good luck to them. Last year I can think of instances where Kerry, Cork, Laois, Tyrone and Dublin carried out similar tactics, and that is just off the top of my head. In my opinion both mayo and donegal are being made the fall guy for something that is going on wholesale. My issue is with the way brolly delivered his carefully crafted article just before the final, which concentrated on mayo while ignoring what was outlined in the above article about donegal. If he detailed both of them I would have no issue - that is fair journalism. I dont care whether it had an effect or not, the reality is he tried his best to make it have an effect, and that isnt acceptable from someone in his position.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 08/01/2013 16:39:33    1315433

Culann
County: Dublin
Posts: 1388



We have bit, but one last question. Should players not be critizised just because they are amateur? My personal view is that if players are pulling people down, blocking runners, feigning injury etc etc should be critizised whether they are amateur or not. If the players decde that they are going to get up to these tactics they deserve what they get. The game tself is more important then protecting amareurs guilty of destroying the game.


Criticise the actions of a player yes. The problem with Brolly and Spillane is they tend to get personal. I've heard Brolly describe Connor Mortimer as- "just a selfish individual" and Dick Clerkin as a dirty player that everybody knows about (can't remember exact quote). He's also gone after countless others and has never been shy to spend May, when things are slow, kicking weaker teams when they're down. That is where it crosses a line. The incident in the League Final where Donal Vaughan went down easily and got straight back up was what I was referring to earlier. Brolly characterised the player as a diver after one minor incident which he immediately thought better of- and anyone who remembers that game will remember the serious physical punishment Vaughan took that day.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 08/01/2013 16:41:42    1315438

08/01/2013 12:58:46
paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 4917

1315195 Exhibit 1 Your honour

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/football/2012/0920/338376-joe-brolly-tips-donegal-to-edge-dour-encounter/

Joe Brolly believes Mayo's 'tactical fouling' will stop Donegal's game in Sunday's All-Ireland Senior Football Championship final in Croke Park

The Headline on the RTE website read "Joe Brolly expects tactical fouling from Mayo" That was a disgraceful attack to begin with and it was a clear attempt to influence officials


James Horan who is a process Engineer clearly understands that part of Mayos process let them down, he identifys the process through value stream mapping. He looks at the value added and non value added activities. The non value added activities cost Mayo an Ireland and not Michael Murphy's general play. He clearly is one of Irelands most intelligent managers
__________
Q1. Would reviewing league games played by the opposition team in the most important game of your career form part of a value added process ?
Q2 As a fellow engineer would you have recommended any changes to Mayo's process having had the benefit in investing 14 seconds in watching the clip below ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E9nVHqWLx0

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 08/01/2013 16:41:46    1315439

roundball
County: Tipperary
Posts: 1744

Criticise the actions of a player yes. The problem with Brolly and Spillane is they tend to get personal. I've heard Brolly describe Connor Mortimer as- "just a selfish individual" and Dick Clerkin as a dirty player that everybody knows about (can't remember exact quote). He's also gone after countless others and has never been shy to spend May, when things are slow, kicking weaker teams when they're down. That is where it crosses a line. The incident in the League Final where Donal Vaughan went down easily and got straight back up was what I was referring to earlier. Brolly characterised the player as a diver after one minor incident which he immediately thought better of- and anyone who remembers that game will remember the serious physical punishment Vaughan took that day.

I'll respevct yout opinion of Brolly but disagree. I think he is god entertainment and gives good strong opinions. What is your opinion on what Brolly had to say about Mayo in the aftermath of the Dublin V Mayo game? Do you think Horan is right to come out whinging about what Brolly said - if that is fact the reason he has come out.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 08/01/2013 16:48:08    1315445

Forget the article, forget the begrudgers, the anti Mayo camp is unreal , we cant do anything to change that. They know we are coming like a ****ing train, we will be up again and again with this team, we will do t eventually and that is all this panel and support base should care about, to hell with the manure that is spouted and plots against us.

Its completely pointless moaning bout it, we will never get the respect we deserve untill we shake that big cup in their faces.

Ballinamore sunday, move on. Mayo mayo mayo mayo mayo mayo mayo mayo.

51longago (Mayo) - Posts: 2981 - 08/01/2013 16:54:23    1315448