hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 2690

1278706 dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 11291

1278688
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 2679

1278665 you asked how the game of rugby has lost its athelticism and well i answered it im not saying i give arats what they do im just giving you the answer as to what happens if you overload in one you lose out in the other

i didn't ask how rugby(players) had lost any athleticism. that's your assertion. You say that if you overload in one you lose out in the other, What evidence have you that they overload, perhaps they just concentrate on one more than the other to suit their needs as opposed to everyone doing the same training regardless of differing needs. ARATS?? asumming you meant facts?? still not a shred of evidence that Rugby has lost any athleticism, it may have changed focus, and as you contend yourself what you lose in one area you gain in another and vise versa. you won't know ciaran kilkenny when he gets back

by viewing the match the pace of rugby has slowed down its more about physicality not pace or speed anymore.if you concentrate more on one elemant of training it means you lose out on the other you dont keep what you gain unless you continue to do it. i ment a rats not facts. yes and its more physical sport now then an athletic sport .

Ah, so it's speed you reckon they've lost now? Again have you any figures for any specific players over 100 mtrs or 2K.

just more wild assertions

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 05/10/2012 16:45:31    1278752

i dont see how one or 2 lads leaving on a largely temporary basis each year will result in the gaa falling behind other sports?..it might not help dublin gaa but i could care less about them as they have more than enough players to pick from to accomodate the loss..it is the smaller counties losing players to the afl and other sports i would be far more worried about

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 05/10/2012 16:48:15    1278760

ffgg
County: Longford
Posts: 965


why are you getting so upset hill its just a debate?....where did i say rugby was bigger than the gaa in dublin?....all i said was due to the media marketing etc the gaa is made to feel second best in dublin when it is not...therefore resulting in gaa people being more anti other sports than they normally would be ...i know full well rugby barely exists on the northside...calm down it is just a debate
05/10/2012 16:41:23
ffgg
County: Longford
Posts: 965


haha dont flatter yourself me getting upset over a thread hahaha your a gas boy.
then is that comment only relating to half of dublin just like how you feel the gaa only exits in summer,that dublin now only counts as the southside as on the northside theres nohing been thrown down anybodys throats.
theres a surprise you disagreeing again haha,paul o connell at top sportsman cant run 15 yards without getting his legs tangled hardly enthuses that rugby has becoming a faster more athletic sport.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/10/2012 16:51:26    1278765

what are you on about hill?..have you not seen the massive promotional tools such as big posters saying this is rugby country etc on the northside...plus all the pubs marketing themselves to bring in customers for heineken cup games..do you even understand what i mean by shoving it down peoples throats?and where have i said gaa is only a summer sport?..i feel the league matters very little in general scheme of a county sides ambition for the year but i still go to all the games plus there is all the club games to go to..it appears you seem to think i am trying to slag dublin in some sort of a way when all i am saying is i can slightly understand why you have such a siege mentality as gaa receives poor treatment in dublin despite being the biggest sport as it is made to feel far lesser than it actually is

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 05/10/2012 17:00:48    1278777

Think Hill16 is getting a lot of unmerited abuse however have to disagree rugby has slowed down since the 90s. Since it turned pro in 90s the speed of the game and the players has hugely increased. Rob Kearney is probably the best athlete in Ireland (he also broke all sorts of records in Louth GAA at underage level). Actually he's probably a good example of what Hill16 is talking about the GAA losing its best players ,as there is no doubt he would a star for the Louth footballers now

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 05/10/2012 17:11:04    1278790

and in relation to paul o connell he moves better than second rows did in the 90s so i dont understand your argument here again?...you again resort to insulting somebody instead of responding on whether any props had this movement in the 90s?

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 05/10/2012 17:15:12    1278794

05/10/2012 16:15:59
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
if_in_doubt, you only have to watch rugby matches from the present day to the 90tys and you can tell that they are far bigger stronger men who are playing the game at a far slower pace then the guys in the 90tys.
The players are bigger but the game isnt far slower. average time ball in play in rugby has increased from around 30% in 1991 world cup to above 50% at 2011 world cup

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 05/10/2012 17:24:15    1278805

i agree with hill on most of the things he says but rugby is far more athletic and faster now in the 90's just like hurling soccer athletics gaelic and many other sports are.

but i disagree with some things ormond and others have said. donegal for example would be far fitter than almost any rugby team and if they were put into a long distance race they would win. as ffgg said you can't really compare it's not like the rugby platyers need to be that fit. they have to be much bigger and stronger plus they get a serious amounts of breaks. often some of the backs could go 10 minutes without touching the ball.

my point is every sport is becoming more athletic but having played a bit of soccer, hurling, gaelic and rugby imo gaelic requires the most fitness. it's sick the training you have to do to be able to run for so far and for so long at a fast pace. rugby training was never nice but the games were handy. i remember playing full back with an age group above me after being at my debs the night before and got through the game alright.

but this is all getting very off tpic the point is one of the bests prospects in hurling chose rugby. he might never make it so who knows he might switch back. hes from a rugby background so big deal.

there could be a solution to this. could all inter county players not sign a contract and get paid but the amount paid could be a tiny amount like 1000 a year. and panel players like 500 a year. at least then when rugby or the afl comes knocking they have to pay the count boards, gaa or their clubs a fee.

would that work or is there something legally wrong with a contract paying such a little amount?

BettystownRoyal (Meath) - Posts: 3353 - 05/10/2012 18:34:22    1278859

Ormond:
"time ball in play in rugby has increased from around 30% in 1991 world cup to above 50% at 2011 world cup" They are playing a different game know, tactically and professionally.

But anyone who argues that rugby is noted for its speed needs to really get out more and see some other sport

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4956 - 05/10/2012 19:00:44    1278876

would that work or is there something legally wrong with a contract paying such a little amount?

Maybe not, but once a player signs a contract it can be bought out. also players are entitled to move elsewhere, Other club or county, regardless of GAA transfer rules, basically end of GAA.

the legal fees per contract would probably cost more than 1000

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 05/10/2012 19:35:12    1278892

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 2913

1278805 05/10/2012 16:15:59
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
if_in_doubt, you only have to watch rugby matches from the present day to the 90tys and you can tell that they are far bigger stronger men who are playing the game at a far slower pace then the guys in the 90tys.
The players are bigger but the game isnt far slower. average time ball in play in rugby has increased from around 30% in 1991 world cup to above 50% at 2011 world cup

That doesnt mean anything is getter any faster. Just means the ball is bobbling around the pitch longer.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 05/10/2012 19:46:50    1278896

BettystownRoyal
County: Meath
Posts: 3143

there could be a solution to this. could all inter county players not sign a contract and get paid but the amount paid could be a tiny amount like 1000 a year. and panel players like 500 a year. at least then when rugby or the afl comes knocking they have to pay the count boards, gaa or their clubs a fee.

would that work or is there something legally wrong with a contract paying such a little amount?

The problem here is how do you force teams or clubs in other sports into paying a fee.

In other sports it works because players will be moving to teams within the same sports, thus the transfer will fall under the regulations of a single sporting body (FIFA, IRB etc). If a player wants to move from a GAA team to another sport altogether the GAA have no power whatsoever to demand a fee be paid, either as a transfer fee or as compensation. Even if a player quits rugby league to play rugby union no fee is required, as the player is moving from the jurisdiction of one sporting body to a completely different one.

If Shelbourne try to sign a player from St. Pat's but don't pay the agreed fee the club can appeal to the FAI, to UEFA then to FIFA, for example. Regarding transfers between two sports there would need to be a separate governing body established, under the agreement of each sporting code involved, which would rule over transfer issues.

Plus if a contract was that small financially, would players technically be classed as professional players? There would be very little room for the GAA to ban players taking part in trials in other sports etc. too from any sort of legal standing.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3692 - 05/10/2012 20:28:41    1278909

AthCliath
County: Dublin
Posts: 1110

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 2913

if_in_doubt, you only have to watch rugby matches from the present day to the 90tys and you can tell that they are far bigger stronger men who are playing the game at a far slower pace then the guys in the 90tys.
The players are bigger but the game isnt far slower. average time ball in play in rugby has increased from around 30% in 1991 world cup to above 50% at 2011 world cup

That doesnt mean anything is getter any faster. Just means the ball is bobbling around the pitch longer.

True enough, but just because the game might appear to be played at a slower pace doesn't mean players are after losing any level of athleticism.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3692 - 05/10/2012 20:29:59    1278910

ffgg
County: Longford
Posts: 980

1278777
what are you on about hill?..have you not seen the massive promotional tools such as big posters saying this is rugby country etc on the northside...plus all the pubs marketing themselves to bring in customers for heineken cup games..do you even understand what i mean by shoving it down peoples throats?and where have i said gaa is only a summer sport?..i feel the league matters very little in general scheme of a county sides ambition for the year but i still go to all the games plus there is all the club games to go to..it appears you seem to think i am trying to slag dublin in some sort of a way when all i am saying is i can slightly understand why you have such a siege mentality as gaa receives poor treatment in dublin despite being the biggest sport as it is made to feel far lesser than it actually is

yes i have seen them posters i have seen them in nearly every county i have been to in the last couple of years not only dublin.
there is no drive by pubs on the northside od dublin to get people in to watch heineken cup matches at all there is not a flag goes up outside the pub even for leinster or ireland when they are playing rugby contrast this with when dublin are playing and all pubs will have dublin and the county they are playing flags outside.
well if your attitude is that the championship is all that matters then the championship only begins in may/june.
i dont have siee mentality against anything you feel this becuase i want the gaa to hold onto its players and not stand still and hope that becuase they have been the main sport in ireland for so long that this will continue i would rather see them do something to insure this will continue.
who does the gaa recieve poor treatment from in dublin?i think the gaa recieves por treatment nationally from the media and papers but i could never fault the evening herald which is a local dublin paper for poor coverage of dublin gaa as they have always promoted it very well and continue to sponsor the dublin championships.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/10/2012 09:31:22    1278974

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 3143

1278790
Think Hill16 is getting a lot of unmerited abuse however have to disagree rugby has slowed down since the 90s. Since it turned pro in 90s the speed of the game and the players has hugely increased. Rob Kearney is probably the best athlete in Ireland (he also broke all sorts of records in Louth GAA at underage level). Actually he's probably a good example of what Hill16 is talking about the GAA losing its best players ,as there is no doubt he would a star for the Louth footballers now

i actualy was going to point out rob kearney in my last post as somebody that has the exact blend of fitness that is rare on a rugby team.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/10/2012 09:36:49    1278975

if in doubt

well may i rephrase it for you then the game of rugby has lost some of its athleticism

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/10/2012 09:39:49    1278976

BettystownRoyal
i agree with hill on most of the things he says but rugby is far more athletic and faster now in the 90's just like hurling soccer athletics gaelic and many other sports are.

but i disagree with some things ormond and others have said. donegal for example would be far fitter than almost any rugby team and if they were put into a long distance race they would win. as ffgg said you can't really compare it's not like the rugby platyers need to be that fit. they have to be much bigger and stronger plus they get a serious amounts of breaks. often some of the backs could go 10 minutes without touching the ball.
my point is every sport is becoming more athletic but having played a bit of soccer, hurling, gaelic and rugby imo gaelic requires the most fitness. it's sick the training you have to do to be able to run for so far and for so long at a fast pace. rugby training was never nice but the games were handy. i remember playing full back with an age group above me after being at my debs the night before and got through the game alright.

but this is all getting very off tpic the point is one of the bests prospects in hurling chose rugby. he might never make it so who knows he might switch back. hes from a rugby background so big deal.

there could be a solution to this. could all inter county players not sign a contract and get paid but the amount paid could be a tiny amount like 1000 a year. and panel players like 500 a year. at least then when rugby or the afl comes knocking they have to pay the count boards, gaa or their clubs a fee.

would that work or is there something legally wrong with a contract paying such a little amount?
In relation to your solution it would depend on what the terms of the contract are but IMO no it ouldnt work
Dont think donegal would be far fitter than almost any pro rugby team. (dont take much offence)Your argument about backs not touching the ball and the bits that follow show a complete lack of knowledge about the sport of rugby

05/10/2012 19:00:44
arock
Ormond:
"time ball in play in rugby has increased from around 30% in 1991 world cup to above 50% at 2011 world cup" They are playing a different game know, tactically and professionally.

But anyone who argues that rugby is noted for its speed needs to really get out more and see some other sport
Ive played other sports including hurling/football/competitive swimming/triathlon/basketball/tennis so im well qualified to talk about it.
Rugby is hamstrung up here in the northern hemisphere because of weather conditions for a large part of the season
Rugby is noted for its speed. Some elelments of the game are incredibly quick


05/10/2012 19:46:50
AthCliath
That doesnt mean anything is getter any faster. Just means the ball is bobbling around the pitch longer.
Yes it does. The ball in on the pitch more which means players have to move more on the pitch which means the game is faster

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 06/10/2012 10:42:11    1279006

06/10/2012 09:31:22
hill16no1man
yes i have seen them posters i have seen them in nearly every county i have been to in the last couple of years not only dublin.
there is no drive by pubs on the northside od dublin to get people in to watch heineken cup matches at all there is not a flag goes up outside the pub even for leinster or ireland when they are playing rugby contrast this with when dublin are playing and all pubs will have dublin and the county they are playing flags outside.
well if your attitude is that the championship is all that matters then the championship only begins in may/june.
i dont have siee mentality against anything you feel this becuase i want the gaa to hold onto its players and not stand still and hope that becuase they have been the main sport in ireland for so long that this will continue i would rather see them do something to insure this will continue.
who does the gaa recieve poor treatment from in dublin?i think the gaa recieves por treatment nationally from the media and papers but i could never fault the evening herald which is a local dublin paper for poor coverage of dublin gaa as they have always promoted it very well and continue to sponsor the dublin championships.
The GAA gets plenty of media attention and to say it gets poor attention is ridiculous. lLook at all the irish times/indo this week and the amount of pages devoted to GAA stories will always be more than the amount of stories devoted to rugby. But from next week and the heineken cup starts and the GAA inter county season finishes up rugby will have more stories in the press.
Which papers do you think treat the GAA poorly??




bad.monkey
Think Hill16 is getting a lot of unmerited abuse however have to disagree rugby has slowed down since the 90s. Since it turned pro in 90s the speed of the game and the players has hugely increased. Rob Kearney is probably the best athlete in Ireland (he also broke all sorts of records in Louth GAA at underage level). Actually he's probably a good example of what Hill16 is talking about the GAA losing its best players ,as there is no doubt he would a star for the Louth footballers now
i actualy was going to point out rob kearney in my last post as somebody that has the exact blend of fitness that is rare on a rugby team.
I wouldnt agree on your last sentence. There is many like him and others with different backgrounds in terms of underage sport that are similar to kearney playing rugby at the moment.

06/10/2012 09:39:49
hill16no1man
well may i rephrase it for you then the game of rugby has lost some of its athleticism
It hasnt. Players are now 24/7 athletes and dynamism, speed, skills everything has improved as the years have went by

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 06/10/2012 10:42:46    1279007

yeah Bad day for Cork hurling.

Adam001 (USA) - Posts: 1 - 06/10/2012 10:52:40    1279009

ormondbannerman


i didnt suggest in relation to rugby i know the gaa gets more coverage then rugby and so it should it has a bigger audience in ireland then rugby does.
my problem is gaa is the biggest sport in ireland and yet soccer gets more media coverage and yet soccer in ireland is behind gaa and rugby but gets more coverage and its not even soccer played in ireland its english soccer,a polish man asked me the other day why does the irish newspapers have so little irish news when i read it i almost feel like im living in england and reading their daily news this is what i have agreivance with our newspapers have english soccer ahead of irish sport if i want to read english sport i would buy an english newspaper

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 06/10/2012 10:57:09    1279012