Isn't it great to see young Irish fellas doing well in sport no matter what it is. I wish him all the best and hope to see him in a green jersey soon.
If GAA didnt become pro during the Celtic tiger it will never happen. We dont have the population to support a professional league.
To me the only way I could see it work was if a number of counties combined and maybe we had a 10 or 12 team league and the players were really just semi professional getting a very small wage for a six month season or something, run over the late spring, Summer, early Autumn when there is no Soccer or Rugby.
If you think about it if you have 10 teams with a panel of 24 and they got 20,000 for the 6 months you would already be talking about nearly 5m in wages. It's not a lot of money but I suppose it would be more than they get now.

Nick (Wexford) - Posts: 1100 - 04/10/2012 12:19:09    1277765

hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 2636

i disagree fitness is defined in all round fitness and while provincial rugby sides are ahead in an-aerobic fitness the inter county gaa sides would be miles ahead in aerobic fitness.which is what both sports are supposed to be atheltic games,rugby has gone away from the athletic game in the last 12 years or so to become alot slower and only certain positions now need a high level of aerobic fitness.

This would be a very hard one to judge in fairness.

In terms of aerobic fitness and capacity then the starting 1-15 on a GAA team would probably be man for man fitter or faster. The rugby players would more than likely be ahead in terms of anaerobic fitness.

In relation to endurance and durability then as professionals the rugby players would more than likely be out in front again, from a stamina only view though a top GAA team might be slightly better.

The one big advantage professional teams will have is the amount of recovery time they have in between training sessions and matches. GAA players will train each morning or evening, and many will still do a full weeks work. This can have a massive impact on the body's recovery, and could lead to player burnout or increased injury potential if not managed correctly.

For the rugby team, training and playing is their work. They will get as much recovery and down time as they need and will be fully looked after in terms of nutritional intake. Very hard for an amateur athlete working 7 or 8 hours a day to fit in 6 or 7 meals, whereas the rugby player can do this fairly easily.

yes and at inter county level in gaa something simliar could be brought in that if a player is going to be tapped up by other sports the county boards must be accomadated for this.

The one thing you've failed to answer on this thread or any of the others where the same debate is ongoing, is who would govern the fees received by county boards?

The transfer of amateur athletes to AFL clubs in no way falls under the jurisdiction of GAA rulings. It's all well and good to say clubs and county boards should be compensated but it would be a no go legally. The GAA has no say in who AFL clubs sign.

Who would the GAA go to if an AFL club failed to pay the fee in question? The AFL aren't going to turn around and tell one of their member clubs they're in the wrong (when they aren't) and force them to pay it are they? The GAA can bring in all the legislation they want outlining what fees AFL clubs have to pay but from a legal standpoint it would carry no weight whatsoever.

You can't force a guy who plays GAA as a hobby or pastime to sign a contract barring him from playing other sports. Professional sports players have terms in their contracts barring the from participating in other sports. Some of them would even have clauses outlining what activities they are not allowed take part in from a recreational point of view either, the whole idea behind this is to limit the chances of injury picked up by a player whose wages they pay.

The GAA can have no say at all in what sports or activities other players take part in. To do so, and to try and prevent them moving abroad to play another sport would be illegal.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3692 - 04/10/2012 12:54:37    1277796

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 3140

1277490
I admire your love of GAA hill, would have to ask if you working or still in education. Also of course pro sportsmen are fitter than GAA players- they spent the day training while GAA players are in work

thank you.i was in education and am now working as personal trainer and fitness class instructor.i disagree that just becuase you dont work means you have to be fitter becuase you have all day so that same method would apply to unemployed people as they have all day to train or people in prison as they can use the gym all day.
its not about how much time during the day you train its about what type of training you do and the effort you put in,its the intensity you train at and the type of training you do that develops fitness both aerobic and an-aerobic and the recovery period which includes getting on board the right food after you train which is more important then the time you spend at it.

Have to agree with all that and you certainly seem to know your stuff. But as you said it's not just time needed ie unemployed are not the fittest it's also training technique. But surely the professional athletes have both the time and the training technique?? The unemployed man only has the time , the GAA player has the training techniques but has to work all day but the pro athlete has both time and technique . He will of course be the fittest . The question you need to ask yourself is do you think GAA players would be fitter , better athletes if they were paid professionals???

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 04/10/2012 13:26:58    1277824

hill16no1man
County: Dublin
i disagree fitness is defined in all round fitness and while provincial rugby sides are ahead in an-aerobic fitness the inter county gaa sides would be miles ahead in aerobic fitness.which is what both sports are supposed to be atheltic games,rugby has gone away from the athletic game in the last 12 years or so to become alot slower and only certain positions now need a high level of aerobic fitness.
yes and at inter county level in gaa something simliar could be brought in that if a player is going to be tapped up by other sports the county boards must be accomadated for this.
I cant see how you can say intercounty gaa players would be miles ahead in aerobic fitness
Rugby hasnt gone away from the athletic game. if you think that you havent a clue about rugby to put it bluntly

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/10/2012 13:37:26    1277829

04/10/2012 12:19:09
Nick
Isn't it great to see young Irish fellas doing well in sport no matter what it is. I wish him all the best and hope to see him in a green jersey soon.
If GAA didnt become pro during the Celtic tiger it will never happen. We dont have the population to support a professional league.
To me the only way I could see it work was if a number of counties combined and maybe we had a 10 or 12 team league and the players were really just semi professional getting a very small wage for a six month season or something, run over the late spring, Summer, early Autumn when there is no Soccer or Rugby.
If you think about it if you have 10 teams with a panel of 24 and they got 20,000 for the 6 months you would already be talking about nearly 5m in wages. It's not a lot of money but I suppose it would be more than they get now.
Yes it is great to see young irishmen doing well in sport no matter the sport.
There is the potential for a professional league in hurling and more likely gaelic football with proper management. There is 30+ countys in gaelic football and you could have a league based competition with a cup competition. Hurling as a pro sport would be much more difficult to run considering the small number of teams competing at the top level.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/10/2012 13:41:38    1277831

if_in_doubt
County: Kildare

yes but recovery is determined on what you do in terms of eating and sleeping its not hard to eat right and sleep right regardless of if you have a full time job or not to go today the next day.my point is that you do not have to be getting piad and in a so called professional sport to be regarded as fitter i know myself and many others who are not involved with pro or top teams in their sports who are all round fitter then pro sports people.
yes i would be more in favour of the gaa envoking in the membership of a gaa player a stipulation as to they must have the club or county boards full consent to attend or leave the team to play aussie rules just like the current transfer system is involving club teams where as you cannot get a transfer to another club unless the club allows you to go if other sports can have this at elite level i see no reason why the gaa can not apply a simliar ruling.
my whole point is to try to come up with ways to prevent the gaa losing its big names i want to see the top players continue to play gaa and not be poached and unless the gaa start to put measures in place it will continue to happen,i dont agree with the mentality of lets pat them on the back for leaving and wish them well as gaa is the biggest sport in ireland so we should not have an inferior complex to other sports we have worked hard as an association for along time to get and keep the gaa at the top despite the lures of pro sports for a long time now and its only in the last few years that people through media and other outlets have changed their attitudes and have now become almost excepting the gaa can not keep top players in our game.
i think the coaching job way is the best way to go myself it would be giving players full time work with an easier way of working around thier own county training which would also be developing the gaa at grass roots and would be massive promotional tool having its top players going into schools and clubs getting more kids involved in the gaa.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/10/2012 13:43:50    1277832

Ormond, In fairness I can see his point. Or at least I think I do!

I suspect that GAA players (especially footballers) cover much more ground in a match. They'll also frequently have less recovery time between runs and sprints. Thus, when it comes to running around, it wouldn't surprise me if footballers were ahead of rugby players. Most Rugby players simply wouldn't need the same skill set, and would be wasting their time training for it.

When it comes to breaking tackles, overall strength, taking physical punishmnent and recovering quickly - the rugby players should be streets ahead. Even if the GAA players needed that conditioning, they couldn't train for it full time.

There are probably different types of fitness. There are probably other types that niether GAA nor rugby players need - could they all run full marathons I wonder? Could they swim the English channel? Could they lift weight at the top levels? So I wouldn't dismiss his point entirely.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 04/10/2012 13:53:05    1277841

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 3141

1277824
bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 3140

1277490
I admire your love of GAA hill, would have to ask if you working or still in education. Also of course pro sportsmen are fitter than GAA players- they spent the day training while GAA players are in work

thank you.i was in education and am now working as personal trainer and fitness class instructor.i disagree that just becuase you dont work means you have to be fitter becuase you have all day so that same method would apply to unemployed people as they have all day to train or people in prison as they can use the gym all day.
its not about how much time during the day you train its about what type of training you do and the effort you put in,its the intensity you train at and the type of training you do that develops fitness both aerobic and an-aerobic and the recovery period which includes getting on board the right food after you train which is more important then the time you spend at it.

Have to agree with all that and you certainly seem to know your stuff. But as you said it's not just time needed ie unemployed are not the fittest it's also training technique. But surely the professional athletes have both the time and the training technique?? The unemployed man only has the time , the GAA player has the training techniques but has to work all day but the pro athlete has both time and technique . He will of course be the fittest . The question you need to ask yourself is do you think GAA players would be fitter , better athletes if they were paid professionals???

i can see your pint but you fail to poit out the gaa has got the time and techniques at county level and alot of clubs in dublin are going the same route.
their is coaches for all kinds in a county set up and strength and conditioning coaches alot higher educated then myself are working with them.
the time is also there as 1-2 hours is more then enough a day at the right intensity and type of training you do.you lose the benefits you gained if you do too much.
now coaches would also be stressing this in pro sports so i cannot see them doing more then what i have said per day.
take rugby players for their gym workout it would not be safe or allowed to do the type of resitance training they do and then go out on the field and do aerobice training as this very bad for your body and injuries will occur.you ask do i feel gaa atheltes would be fitter and better athetes if paid proffesionaly and my answer would be no as gaa at inter county level put in the max amount required at the moment and regardless of them getting paid or not the only thing would change i feel would be more time on skill work and their training times of day would be altered.there wives might be alot happier il give you that hahahahaha

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/10/2012 13:54:31    1277844

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 2902

1277829
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
i disagree fitness is defined in all round fitness and while provincial rugby sides are ahead in an-aerobic fitness the inter county gaa sides would be miles ahead in aerobic fitness.which is what both sports are supposed to be atheltic games,rugby has gone away from the athletic game in the last 12 years or so to become alot slower and only certain positions now need a high level of aerobic fitness.
yes and at inter county level in gaa something simliar could be brought in that if a player is going to be tapped up by other sports the county boards must be accomadated for this.
I cant see how you can say intercounty gaa players would be miles ahead in aerobic fitness
Rugby hasnt gone away from the athletic game. if you think that you havent a clue about rugby to put it bluntly

in conditoning you only have look at the athlete too much resistance work slows down fibres which give you speed and rugby players from 10-15 years ago where fair quicker take brian o driscoll yes he has improved physicaly in size but aerobicaly no where near what he was when younger he lost a few yards in pace bulking up and thus you lose sharpness off the mark.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/10/2012 13:58:16    1277848

hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 2640

yes but recovery is determined on what you do in terms of eating and sleeping its not hard to eat right and sleep right regardless of if you have a full time job or not to go today the next day.my point is that you do not have to be getting piad and in a so called professional sport to be regarded as fitter i know myself and many others who are not involved with pro or top teams in their sports who are all round fitter then pro sports people.

Fully agree that it's the type of training you do as opposed to the amount of training you, and of course the same goes for food intake and rest times.

The simple fact though is that professional athletes will find appropriate rest and recovery times, as well as optimum nutritional intake times easier to come by due to them being professional. Their week is tailored around this, your average GAA player though will have to fit this around a working week, not saying it's impossible to do because clearly many players manage it, but it's not always going to be possible for them to take full advantage of the time they spend outside of the gym or off the pitch.

yes i would be more in favour of the gaa envoking in the membership of a gaa player a stipulation as to they must have the club or county boards full consent to attend or leave the team to play aussie rules just like the current transfer system is involving club teams where as you cannot get a transfer to another club unless the club allows you to go if other sports can have this at elite level i see no reason why the gaa can not apply a simliar ruling.

How do you not get this.

In other sports a professional athlete requires permission from his team to join another team as the team he is leaving owns the rights to him within that sport, unless of course he is after reaching the end of his contract. The GAA doesn't own its players, nor should it.

The GAA can only govern transfers within the GAA. That's why there are rules and regulations to be adhered to when a player wants to join a new club or move to a new county.

A transfer from a GAA team to an AFL team is outside of the GAA's power. There is nothing they can do to stop it. The GAA doesn't own the player like a professional team or organization effectively does.

The GAA can only rule on transfers that take place within the boundaries of the GAA, it has no power over transfers involving any other sport or sporting organization at all.

Amateur athletes should in no way be told what they can or can't do by any county board or the GAA itself.

Imagine the uproar if a player needed permission to attend a trial and the club or county board refused? That's hardly going to encourage the player to stay and give his all for the rest of his life to the team is it?

The GAA simply can't do it because it would go against freedom of movement and employment laws. Unless of course you want us to pull out of the EU and enforce some very strict employment laws.

i think the coaching job way is the best way to go myself it would be giving players full time work with an easier way of working around thier own county training which would also be developing the gaa at grass roots and would be massive promotional tool having its top players going into schools and clubs getting more kids involved in the gaa.

I certainly agree the GAA could and should do more to help it's players out.

The problem with jobs is who gets them?

A good player doesn't always make a good coach? How would you decide who gets these roles? Surely it would a bit unfair to just give jobs to young lads to stop them moving to other sports.

All this aside from the financial aspects, who pays the player, the GAA or a county board? What's to stop a player from a weaker county accepting a job from a bigger county and then transferring to them? Surely that would open a whole new can of worms.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3692 - 04/10/2012 14:09:28    1277855

you still fail to respond to the point hill on kilkennys contract being very poor pay....where did i attack you?...i attacked your point as you tried to blatantly presume someone on here was saying something he wasnt.....so you are saying we should bring back the ban?....gaa are amateur sportsmen and i like it that way

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 04/10/2012 14:28:46    1277866

i dont think its nonsense that gaa teams are fitter than pro rugby teams well besides leinster anyway..especially someone like connacht..rugby is a rather slow sport and numerous players dont exactly have much athleticism

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 04/10/2012 14:30:14    1277870

and hill even if i had attacked you cant exactly complain as youve called both kilkenny and sweetman sell outs on here amongst other things and compared them to women selling themselves for money?...how is that fair please tell me?

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 04/10/2012 14:42:18    1277883

ffgg
County: Longford
Posts: 889

1277870 i dont think its nonsense that gaa teams are fitter than pro rugby teams well besides leinster anyway..especially someone like connacht..rugby is a rather slow sport and numerous players dont exactly have much athleticism
Or Skill!

Real Kerry Fan (None) - Posts: 2957 - 04/10/2012 14:47:04    1277890

well compared to other sports i would argue skill is generally lacking but this is going off topic ormond will want to debate this for hours!

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 04/10/2012 14:52:31    1277897

04/10/2012 13:43:50
hill16no1man
yes but recovery is determined on what you do in terms of eating and sleeping its not hard to eat right and sleep right regardless of if you have a full time job or not to go today the next day.my point is that you do not have to be getting piad and in a so called professional sport to be regarded as fitter i know myself and many others who are not involved with pro or top teams in their sports who are all round fitter then pro sports people.
my whole point is to try to come up with ways to prevent the gaa losing its big names i want to see the top players continue to play gaa and not be poached and unless the gaa start to put measures in place it will continue to happen,i dont agree with the mentality of lets pat them on the back for leaving and wish them well as gaa is the biggest sport in ireland so we should not have an inferior complex to other sports we have worked hard as an association for along time to get and keep the gaa at the top despite the lures of pro sports for a long time now and its only in the last few years that people through media and other outlets have changed their attitudes and have now become almost excepting the gaa can not keep top players in our game.
i think the coaching job way is the best way to go myself it would be giving players full time work with an easier way of working around thier own county training which would also be developing the gaa at grass roots and would be massive promotional tool having its top players going into schools and clubs getting more kids involved in the gaa.
The GAA would never be able to stop its members from taking up auusie rules trials as a player stopped could easily win a case against the GAA stating the GAA was preventing him from working. Coaching is the main way go IMO as well

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/10/2012 15:10:22    1277914

04/10/2012 13:53:05
Culchie
Ormond, In fairness I can see his point. Or at least I think I do!
I suspect that GAA players (especially footballers) cover much more ground in a match. They'll also frequently have less recovery time between runs and sprints. Thus, when it comes to running around, it wouldn't surprise me if footballers were ahead of rugby players. Most Rugby players simply wouldn't need the same skill set, and would be wasting their time training for it.
When it comes to breaking tackles, overall strength, taking physical punishmnent and recovering quickly - the rugby players should be streets ahead. Even if the GAA players needed that conditioning, they couldn't train for it full time.
There are probably different types of fitness. There are probably other types that niether GAA nor rugby players need - could they all run full marathons I wonder? Could they swim the English channel? Could they lift weight at the top levels? So I wouldn't dismiss his point entirely.
Some footballers cover a bigger distance than quite a few rugby players and vice versa. Rugby players need a completely different skillset and need skills in rucking/mauling/ tackling etc that are not needed in g football.
There are loads of different styles of fitness.

hill16no1man
in conditoning you only have look at the athlete too much resistance work slows down fibres which give you speed and rugby players from 10-15 years ago where fair quicker take brian o driscoll yes he has improved physicaly in size but aerobicaly no where near what he was when younger he lost a few yards in pace bulking up and thus you lose sharpness off the mark.
sorry hill but with regard to you saying rugby players 10-15 years ago were fair quicker you are talking out of your **** as that is nowhere near being true. The game of rugby thesedays is much more quicker than the past.

04/10/2012 14:30:14
ffgg
i dont think its nonsense that gaa teams are fitter than pro rugby teams well besides leinster anyway..especially someone like connacht..rugby is a rather slow sport and numerous players dont exactly have much athleticism
What players are not athletic?? name the players that dont exactly have much athleticism??
Rugby can be a slowish sport but remember it is a winter sport and a collision sport compared to gaelic and hurling which are contact sports played in summer
Most pro rugby players are much fitter than gaa amatuer players. They run lower/higher distances depending on position and the role a player plays in their sides tactics/tactics of opposition

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/10/2012 15:10:31    1277915

yeah rugby is a far quicker game now i agree so i dont understand what hill is saying there..more nonsense...i cant agree that they are much fitter though ormond...most rugby players especially forwards besides the back row dont exactly have much athleticism compared to gaa players...gaa players especially half forwards and half backs and midfielders cover massive distances....i feel the argument on who is fitter is a bit of a waste of time as it can never be fully proven but i dont think you should dismiss the argument as nonsense as that is both arrogant and disrespectful to gaa players

ffgg (Longford) - Posts: 2571 - 04/10/2012 15:17:54    1277923

if_in_doubt
County: Kildare
Posts: 1118

there is already full time coaches who are paid county boards and clubs so why not use inter county players in this role,all them coaches are full trianed throught level 1,2,3 courses so inter county players would contiue along the same process

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/10/2012 18:01:58    1278069

ffgg

how is it a very poor one yes in relation to a soccer player it might be but from what he is currently on for playing sport it is not poor. the ban may have been one of the real reasons the gaa got to the top of the sporting ladder in ireland so it could be looked at maybe at certain age level its just a suggestion ,im bringing suggestions to the table it seems most others are quite happy to roll ove and just let layers go becuase they will get paid on other sports,the gaa will fall down the pecking order with that attitude.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/10/2012 18:05:32    1278073