mlcollins
County: Kerry

"Well juicy my point is a relavent point,maybe an aside to the substantive premise of the post but it is relevant,anyway i think it only appropriate that the top teams are rewarded with the chance to compete at yet another higher level of the league to compete to determine who is the best team in the league especially given the close nature and inconsistant results of this years premier league and also the fact all matches will be played in neutral grounds.It would not make any sense to have semi-finals in the lower divisions as could you imagine 3rd and 4th place teams playing against those teams that already been promoted,it would be a farce of a competition without RELEVANCE".

mlcollins,

You are not making any sense, the top two teams in the lower divisions would not be promoted when the serious of league games finished, promotion would be awarded to the two teams who won their respective semi-finals and reached the final of their division.

I could just as easily argue that the top two teams in division 1 were the best two teams in the division and why therefore should the 3rd and 4th best teams in the division get a chance of becoming overall division 1 winners.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 10/04/2012 16:14:57    1148136

mlcollins
County: Kerry

"Well juicy my point is a relavent point,maybe an aside to the substantive premise of the post but it is relevant,anyway i think it only appropriate that the top teams are rewarded with the chance to compete at yet another higher level of the league to compete to determine who is the best team in the league especially given the close nature and inconsistant results of this years premier league and also the fact all matches will be played in neutral grounds.It would not make any sense to have semi-finals in the lower divisions as could you imagine 3rd and 4th place teams playing against those teams that already been promoted,it would be a farce of a competition without RELEVANCE".

mlcollins,

You are not making any sense, the top two teams in the lower divisions would not be promoted when the serious of league games finished, promotion would be awarded to the two teams who won their respective semi-finals and reached the final of their division.

I could just as easily argue that the top two teams in division 1 were the best two teams in the division and why therefore should the 3rd and 4th best teams in the division get a chance of becoming overall division 1 winners.


Exactly squidword, this was the point that I was trying to make. Surely if they are going to implement this format for Division 1 then it make sense that it is done for all Division.

mlcollins You say that the ' top teams are rewarded with the chance to compete at yet another higher level of the league to compete to determine who is the best team in the league'. The top teams in the league are the top 2 which is the top 25% of the teams in the Division where as currently it is operating on a 50% level.

you also say that ' given the close nature and inconsistant results of this years premier league' well then should the bottom four no play off to see who gets relegated on this principle.

Your argument has so many flaws in it

juicy (Meath) - Posts: 402 - 10/04/2012 16:32:05    1148158

squidword and juicy ye are contradicting yere own argument,yere argument is based on fairity and equality,fair enough but if you go down this line and you mentioned it juicy that if i was advocating for the four top teams to compete at a higher level given that the results were close and inconsistant why not give the four bottom teams the chance to slog it out to avoid relegation but sure where would it end, every team in this instance would be fighting it out,THIS WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE,you see at the end of the day the first division is the premier division in the league with obviously a higher concentration of top teams and therefore it should only be right for them given the higher level and quality of competition to be given a more expansive opportunity of winning the league.

mlcollins (Kerry) - Posts: 440 - 10/04/2012 17:10:06    1148219

the Mickey Harte call for a champions round

Did Tyrone put forward that idea ??

KELF (Kildare) - Posts: 775 - 10/04/2012 17:24:03    1148231

What are you on about KELF?

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 10/04/2012 17:25:54    1148235

mlcollins,

If Kerry are beaten by Mayo in one semi-final and Cork are beaten by Down in the other semi-final and Mayo beat Down in the final can you tell me what would the final positions of Kerry, Cork and Down in division 1 be.

Mayo would be division 1 winners but what would be the finishing positions of the others ?. I'd be intrested to know where you think Kerry should be placed if this came to pass.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 10/04/2012 19:08:46    1148319

I agree I think the league semi-finals are nonsense no matter what the division. There won't be more than 25-30k in Croke Park on Sunday so its not like the GAA are making much on them (probably losing money tbh) and the two results are predictable with the top 2 sides progressing to the final unless they want to avoid meeting one another with one and probably two more meetings ahead.

Its not like division 1 was so lopsided that they needed division 1 semi-finals to keep things interesting as the bottom 6 in the division were closely matched with results having no set pattern.

Stuckinthepast (Galway) - Posts: 472 - 10/04/2012 19:20:42    1148328

Squidword it's not about placement in this scenario,it's about achieving the ultimate prize and it's not merely a division one title,it's THE NATIONAL LEAGUE TITLE one which cannot be contested and susequently won by any of the other lower divisional teams.There was a time as you well know where there was no divisional finals in the lower divisions and division one or later on the top two teams in division 1a and division 1b played in a semi final scenario.

mlcollins (Kerry) - Posts: 440 - 10/04/2012 19:38:53    1148341

mlcollins,

If it's THE NATIONAL LEAGUE TITLE as you say (and I'm not disputing that) then the 32 counties should be given a fair crack at winning it EVERY YEAR.

The division 2,3 and 4 league competitions are all recognised as NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE TITLES and therefore they should be afforded the same rules and conditions as the division 1 league is afforded.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 10/04/2012 20:16:36    1148389

How are they at a disadvantage? Do you honestly think that a 3rd or 4th place team from the lower divisions would have the slightest bit of interest in a semi-final after having already missed out on promotion? And if you are suggesting that the 3rd and 4th placed teams should still have a shot at promotion, then that just makes a mockery of the whole league format as it does not reward the top two teams for their consistency.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 1037 - 10/04/2012 21:00:12    1148447

i could never see what was wrong with the previous format 1A vs 1B in one pair of semi's and 2A vs 2B in another set with overall division 1 and division 2 league champions. IMO, they should bring that back but go ahead with something like what they were going to do originally this year. mix up the 16 teams to have 2 divisions consisting of 2 groups of 8 teams of fairly equal strength. division 2 champion gets promoted to division 1 for following year. team with worst overall wins tally from division 1, regardless of group, gets relegated. just something new to spice things up a bit and possibly make the league a bit mor competitive. opinions?
Also, RTE's highlights really need to improve. get the good panelists in and start highlighting at least even 1 game per week from the 2 lower divisions. same can be said for TG4 but at least they show a good deal of games plus 2 full ones every weekend.

galwayman95 (Galway) - Posts: 292 - 10/04/2012 21:08:39    1148465

galwayman95
County: Galway
Posts: 238

1148465
i could never see what was wrong with the previous format 1A vs 1B in one pair of semi's and 2A vs 2B in another set with overall division 1 and division 2 league champions. IMO, they should bring that back but go ahead with something like what they were going to do originally this year. mix up the 16 teams to have 2 divisions consisting of 2 groups of 8 teams of fairly equal strength. division 2 champion gets promoted to division 1 for following year. team with worst overall wins tally from division 1, regardless of group, gets relegated. just something new to spice things up a bit and possibly make the league a bit mor competitive. opinions?
Also, RTE's highlights really need to improve. get the good panelists in and start highlighting at least even 1 game per week from the 2 lower divisions. same can be said for TG4 but at least they show a good deal of games plus 2 full ones every weekend.

Yea I was always in favour of the 1A 1B 2A 2B system. At least then when there was a semi final it was about the top two teams of each division playing against each other. Gave teams a chance to play against another team. I felt the system worked well every one got competitive games and the championship was better as a result. I like your point about the relegation but it would probably be something that would be too practical for the GAA to introduce. And maybe even have an open draw with the 16 team to decide the groups and they allow change every year so the teams play different teams.

juicy (Meath) - Posts: 402 - 10/04/2012 22:03:51    1148535

10/04/2012 16:05:22
squidword
County: Louth
Posts: 2716


1148119
legendzxix,


When you refer to "giving provincial championships an added edge" are you saying they should be treated more favourably than other counties


As it currently stands none of the provincial winners get a second bite at the cherry, but what I think you are saying is that two of the provincial winners should get a second chance, namely the losers of the games played between the four provincial winners. That still leave two teams who wont get a second shot at the title.


How far down the line do you go before your eliminated after only on loss ?. If a provincial final winner loses an All-Ireland final to a team who lost earlier in the completion should they not be entitled to get a second chance also ?.


If you look at other competitions, groups winners get home advantage or second-leg at home. You can call it being treated more favourably or a reward for doing well at a certain stage.


You're right that a champions round would still leave two teams without a second bite at the cherry but at least they'd be in an All-Ireland semi-final, 70 minutes from a final.


In the hurling, the two teams without a second shot, namely the two provincial winners, are one game from a final. The same happens in the Christy Ring Cup, the winners of 2A, two without a second bite, get to being one game away from a final.


When Mickey Harte has called for a champions round, he has consistently said it's about giving all teams a second chance short of the semi-finals. Noone could realistically ask for more from there. It would also breathe life into the provincial championships as the better chance would come from winning the provincial crown.


In the AFL, the last 8 series has 1-4 playing off with the winners going to the semi-finals and the losers taking on the winners of 5-8 play-offs. That's effectively what the hurling championship has: 1-4 being provincial winners, 5-8 being qualifying phase 3. Provincial winners are going into semi-finals, one step from the final. Provincial losers are going into quarter-finals against two qualifiers.


Creating an extra weekend for a champions round and the subsequent quarter-finals would be of more benefit that an extra knock-out round in the league.


10/04/2012 17:24:03
KELF
County: Kildare
Posts: 77


1148231
the Mickey Harte call for a champions round


Did Tyrone put forward that idea ??


Both Dublin and Tyrone put a motion forward but didn't get backing at the time.

An alternative going the opposite way of a champions round would be a Round of 16 as mentioned before. Provincial finalists and qualifier round 2 winners meeting at the same stage but with round 2 winners split into two groups based on league placing. Provincial winners drawn at home against lower 4 round 2 winners and Provincial runner-up drawn against the higher 4 round 2 winners with a separate draw for home tie. Croke Park onwards then for the quarter-finals etc....

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9000 - 11/04/2012 09:01:50    1148548

"How are they at a disadvantage? Do you honestly think that a 3rd or 4th place team from the lower divisions would have the slightest bit of interest in a semi-final after having already missed out on promotion? And if you are suggesting that the 3rd and 4th placed teams should still have a shot at promotion, then that just makes a mockery of the whole league format as it does not reward the top two teams for their consistency."

Gaillimh_Abu,

If you're against this so much in the lower divisions then surely you'll agree that letting the 3rd and 4th place teams in division 1 in with a chance of becoming THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE WINNER also makes a mockery of the league, as this format also does not reward the top two teams in the division for their consistency.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 11/04/2012 10:14:52    1148589

legendzxix
County: Kerry

"When Mickey Harte has called for a champions round, he has consistently said it's about giving all teams a second chance short of the semi-finals. Noone could realistically ask for more from there. It would also breathe life into the provincial championships as the better chance would come from winning the provincial crown."
That would be OK if all the provincial championships were run on equal footing and in a fair manner.

legendzxix,

Look at this years draw in Connacht for example, in particular look at the draw Mayo have gotten. Also look at how Leinster conduct their championship draw as another example, it's certainly not what you could describe as an open draw, the previous years semi-finalists are all seeded, they get an automatic quarter-final place and therefore they all avoid each other up to the semi-final stage.

If you are going to reward counties for winning their provincial crown then you need fairness in the provinces for a start but you also need equality across the board which certainly cannot happen given the current layout of the four provinces.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 11/04/2012 10:44:30    1148617

It doesn't quite apply the same. Everyone knows the rules at the start of the season. Finish top 4, and you're into the play-offs for the league. I'm not totally for it but everyone knows the rules beforehand and what's expected. It'd be hard to apply semi-finals to the lower divisions due to promotion.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9000 - 11/04/2012 10:51:01    1148629

Kerry and Mayo will play each other in the league semi final, after just playing each other in the final round of league. There is no benefit to this at all. It would be better if Tyrone and Kildare/Galway were currently in Div 1, and Mayo, Kerry, Dublin etc had 2 additional competitive games and more varied opposition.
What i suggest is:
1. Abolish semi finals and finals from the football league. The league champions are the team who finish top of the table.
2. Increase Div 1 to 10 teams,
3. Increase Div 2 to 10 teams,
3. Decrease Div 3 to 6 teams,
4. Decrease Div 4 to 6 teams,
This will give all teams in Div 1 & Div 2 a total of 9 league games each, as currently only the league finalists get to play 9 games in the league. So all teams get in Div 1 get an equal amount of games. And they don't actually play anymore games than if they were to reach the league final. I think most people accept that the top 2 or 3 teams in Division 2 are normally on par with the Div 1 teams.
Teams in Div 3 & 4 play each other twice, home and away with a total of 10 games each.

The current system isn't great, as the line between relegation and a semi final spot can be simply winning a single game.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 11/04/2012 11:36:47    1148687

If Kilkenny returned, where would they fit in? A division 4 of 7 playing home and away or have you another solution??

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9000 - 11/04/2012 11:44:36    1148698

mlcollins

It's really academic for yere lot,wouldn't make a differance to ye even if they had.

-----

Your point totally invalid little man, what difference does it make for Division 1? And besides, it might bear more significance at a lower division if it was introduced into a promotion playoff or something along those lines.

ahsure. (Galway) - Posts: 1729 - 11/04/2012 12:04:24    1148723

TheGateKeeper
County: Tyrone
Posts: 353

1147993
Whoever finishes top of the division/ league should win the league, thats what a league system is!
There is no need for semi-finals and finals, if you finish top you should win it, end of story.

exactly... no more to be said.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5522 - 11/04/2012 12:20:46    1148743