Would I be wrong in saying that the support rugby and English soccer in Ireland has peaked?

I'll take rugby first. We have just come through the most successful period ever in Irish rugby but, alas, it is not looking like we can maintain the progress that has been made over the last 10 years or so. Regarding the Heineken Cup and the growth of Munster, Leinster, Ulser and Connaught I can see the success for those provinces continuing but I can see less and less Irish lads emerging. I think professional rugby will be relying on buying in the best foreign players available instead of producing home based players. Thats what professional sport does. Just look at English soccer as an example. I'm no expert on rugby but that is the way I se it.

Regarding English soccer, I think it is in a mess (and again I'm no expert and mightn't be fully up to speed on whats going on over here). It is totally reliant on cash. While being in the company of a friend who was watching the Champions League he ther night I heard Dunphy saying how bad English teams had become and how there were only two teams left in the Champions League with a chance of winning it. This is the highlight and main competition in the the English and World soccer calender and one of the main panelists reckons only two teams have a chance!!!! He than suggested that other clubs would have to get the cheque book out!!!! Thats not sport to me. Thats business! If a team wants to be successfull in England they have to have money. Just look at Manchester City. You can win if you have money!! Bit by bit I can see people copping on to this. Also, becuaes there is a major recession hitting the big traditional clubs in England ( Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal) I can see them not having as much success over the years and for their fan base in Ireland to dwindle. In Scotland Celtic have no money (and we all know about Rangers) and the full houses are not as frequent because of that.

As long as Irish people support English soccer Irish socer will never develop or grow.

Just a few thoughts!!

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 24/02/2012 11:02:59    1116949

24/02/2012 11:02:59
Culann
County: Dublin
Posts: 110

1116949 Would I be wrong in saying that the support rugby and English soccer in Ireland has peaked?

I'll take rugby first. We have just come through the most successful period ever in Irish rugby but, alas, it is not looking like we can maintain the progress that has been made over the last 10 years or so. Regarding the Heineken Cup and the growth of Munster, Leinster, Ulser and Connaught I can see the success for those provinces continuing but I can see less and less Irish lads emerging. I think professional rugby will be relying on buying in the best foreign players available instead of producing home based players. Thats what professional sport does. Just look at English soccer as an example. I'm no expert on rugby but that is the way I se it.

Regarding English soccer, I think it is in a mess (and again I'm no expert and mightn't be fully up to speed on whats going on over here). It is totally reliant on cash. While being in the company of a friend who was watching the Champions League he ther night I heard Dunphy saying how bad English teams had become and how there were only two teams left in the Champions League with a chance of winning it. This is the highlight and main competition in the the English and World soccer calender and one of the main panelists reckons only two teams have a chance!!!! He than suggested that other clubs would have to get the cheque book out!!!! Thats not sport to me. Thats business! If a team wants to be successfull in England they have to have money. Just look at Manchester City. You can win if you have money!! Bit by bit I can see people copping on to this. Also, becuaes there is a major recession hitting the big traditional clubs in England ( Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal) I can see them not having as much success over the years and for their fan base in Ireland to dwindle. In Scotland Celtic have no money (and we all know about Rangers) and the full houses are not as frequent because of that.

As long as Irish people support English soccer Irish socer will never develop or grow.

Just a few thoughts!!

Rugby isnt at a plateau at all, numbers at underage level are increasing every year and these numbers will lead on to increases at adult level in the years to come. Munster and Leinster are 2 of the biggest brands in Pro club rugby in the world at the moment and Ulster have some wealthy benefactor at the moment who is really helping them and connacht are improving year on year and beginning to get some decent enough crowds to their games. Success does talk but with the way the IRFU manages the top players, Munster, Leinster will always be some of the top sides in the pro 12 and Ulster will be there most years while connacht are still playing catch up. European cussecc is the big one but Munster/Leinster/Ulster make most of their money off the pro 12 through season tickets and they will keep making money

Funny you talk about less and less irish players appearing for the province when the IRFU recently announced proposals that will limit the amount of foreign players playing for the provinces to 6. Also the leinster schools cup(which is widely ridiculed here) will keep on producing quite a lot of kids ready for the academy system and the pro game for years to come andf the youths system is producing more and more academy quality players every year

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/02/2012 11:15:16    1116957

Nail on the head Culann

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 24/02/2012 11:16:52    1116960

Rugby isnt at a plateau at all, numbers at underage level are increasing every year and these numbers will lead on to increases at adult level in the years to come. Munster and Leinster are 2 of the biggest brands in Pro club rugby in the world at the moment and Ulster have some wealthy benefactor at the moment who is really helping them and connacht are improving year on year and beginning to get some decent enough crowds to their games. Success does talk but with the way the IRFU manages the top players, Munster, Leinster will always be some of the top sides in the pro 12 and Ulster will be there most years while connacht are still playing catch up. European cussecc is the big one but Munster/Leinster/Ulster make most of their money off the pro 12 through season tickets and they will keep making money

Funny you talk about less and less irish players appearing for the province when the IRFU recently announced proposals that will limit the amount of foreign players playing for the provinces to 6. Also the leinster schools cup(which is widely ridiculed here) will keep on producing quite a lot of kids ready for the academy system and the pro game for years to come andf the youths system is producing more and more academy quality players every year

Thanks for your response Ormondebanner. I realise rugby has been growing but what I am suggesting is that it has peaked. Unfortunately, the way the growth of any sport works is that with success there comes a following. I am the perfect example I never watched rugby until Ireland started winning and now that they are not winning anymore I have stopped watching it. Fickle I know but I wouldn't have the same dedication or interest to rubgy as I do to football and a lesser extent hurling. Unfortuantely I don't think Irelands success in International rugby will continue much longer and I can see a lot of people falling off the bandwagon.

Regarding professional provincial rugby I think that has also peaked and I am also worried that it will become the joke English soccer has become regarding the ransfering of players. You mention that the clubs will be only allowed to have six foreign players. Well you can be preety sure that these are going to be six of the best if thats all that is permitted and that would be to the detrement of the development of Irish rugby. I really hope Irish rugby does not go down the road soccer has gone down regarding players kissing one badge one year and another badge the next.

I like rubgy. It is a good sport. I am not attacking it here. I am merely discussing professional sport and the damage too much money does to it.

Culann (Dublin) - Posts: 2306 - 24/02/2012 11:34:59    1116974

Excellent posts Culann, some very good points, but I have to side with ormond here

I agree with you totally about soccer, it's a monopoly, it's business, not sport in my view. But the rugby provincial & international teams are home grown, through schools, colleges etc, Rugby is not as much about where you're from as GAA is, that is without question, but where you're from still has a lot to do with it just the same

Maybe one day, Rugby will become a monopoly like soccer in which case I'll probably get p*ssed off about it and give up watching it but until that day, I remain a Rugby nut just as much as I do a GAA nut, which will be highly audible from my seat in the upper East Stand in the Aviva tomorrow against Itlay and in 2 weeks in the Lower stand against Scotland.

Very few amateur sports in the world are as famous as GAA but I'm not going to prejudice all professional sports because of that

This is not directed at you, but it baffles me how some posters are so unable to accept a unified love of Irish Rugby & GAA without pitting one against the other in some sort of meaningless popularity contest

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 24/02/2012 12:22:41    1117016

the attendances at leinster munster ulster and connaught all depend on success,none of these were recieving a big gate up untill they won something and in connaughts case still dont get more then 2 or 3 thousand.
munster support has definatly hit a platauex as when they were winning heineken cups tickets were very hard to get for thomond park games where as over the last couple of years a major decline in interest to go to matches has hit them,im allowing for the recession in this before ormond bites my head off but magners league games attract nobody anymore to thomond park.leinster are riding the crest of a wave in terms of success i agree and have improved their support but unlike dublin footballers support levels for leinster depend on success and as we see happening munster now there will come a time in the next couple of years where leinster will start to fall back without trophys and the support will do the same as rugby is not widespread in dublin unlike gaa and soccer so those attending are from pockets and the northside of dublin is alien to rugby.as for the international team the media are doing a great job of keeping bums on seats for them but the fact they only have 2 or 3 home games in a season means its quite easy to get a good crowd.
on the soccer part well a massive drop in interest will occur soon as the warning signs are clear success of english teams is dropping and the few hammerings they have got recently in europe (which is great to see i must add) coupled with there top two teams not even playing in the major competition wont help them.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 24/02/2012 13:23:17    1117060

Some excellent points being made. But my proposal is to completely upturn the whole GAA system. We live in a modern world and we seriously need to glamorize and make the GAA experience far more exciting. The idea of the provincial championship is dated, old fashioned and out of date. My dream for the GAA would be friday/satuday night games played in a league system. I'd market the living hell out of those games and I'd have music blaring etc under the lights. Imagine castlebar/sligo/carrick welcoming dublin/kerry on a friday night under lights. I believe it would work wonders for competing with Rugby. I've seen it in Galway with the connacht rugby team, the marketing campaign is something to be admired. And connacht cannot even win a game!

I'm not saying its a flawless idea but I do think a shake up is in order.

republican (Sligo) - Posts: 350 - 24/02/2012 13:38:59    1117078

Culann
Pro rugby hasnt peaked yet, the pro 12 in its current format with the italians teams is only in infant stage and the potential growth of the game in italy is huge. Welsh clubs are doing ok and the scots are improving, the pro 12 used to get slagging that it was a much weaker league than the english or french but thats not the case any more
Silly to say that you dont watch ireland now that their not winning as mcuh, their a team representing your country, everyone should always support their national team even if they dont follow the sport the team is competing in for nationalism at the least.
WRT to provincial teams, the IRFU controls the transferring of players between the provinces and other teams and can veto transfers as they see fit. For example both munster and ulster want to sign tommy bowe, the IRFU has the power to decide tommy has to move to munster even if tommy doesnt want to go south and only wants to play with ulster
Nothing wrong with picking 6 of the best players in the world, if you are only allowed 6 foreigners. The irish sides have benefited very well from having some of the best players in the world playing with them like doug howlett, rocky elsom. If you are to have foreign players its better they are the best in the world than middle ranking journeymen.

gig, not attacking you but from my view and experience where you are from plays a huge role in rugby. For example im playing with Nenagh this season and also playing u21 with a club in limerick and the pride this club, which is from an area in limerick which has gotten a very unfair reputation from the media, has in its area and the jersey is as big if not bigger than any GAA club in the country

Gig, i totally agree with your last paragraph, some great words and advice that some here could read and start following what you've said

Hill, as i said before the ulsters win in 99 and munsters run to the final in 2000, the clubs were the big draw in irish rugby after the national team and following the introduction of the celtic league in 2001 and the top players started playing more and more with the provinces and less with their clubs the provinces became the big draw and as the best players were all playing on the 1 team, the crowds started to appear more and more

and pro 12 games do still attract big crowds, averages are down sue to the recession but the crowds are still pretty good. Leinsters average is very good at the moment and more than likely will stay very high even if the success doesnt come as easy as it has the last year or so

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/02/2012 14:40:09    1117117

republican
I'd market the living hell out of those games and I'd have music blaring etc under the lights. Imagine castlebar/sligo/carrick welcoming dublin/kerry on a friday night under lights.

Would you have any teams involved other than Kerry and Dublin

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 24/02/2012 15:17:50    1117137

I'm sure Laois would draw a massive crowd too dhorse.

Coylers Elbow (Meath) - Posts: 1075 - 24/02/2012 15:22:25    1117142

hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 1472

munster support has definatly hit a platauex as when they were winning heineken cups tickets were very hard to get for thomond park games where as over the last couple of years a major decline in interest to go to matches has hit them,im allowing for the recession in this before ormond bites my head off but magners league games attract nobody anymore to thomond park

you must be joking or else you haven't checked your facts. I've brought the ould fella to Thomond Park 5 times over the last 12-24 months and only ever managed to get seated tickets once and always had to settle for making the pure 70 year old duffer stand on knackered knees on the Terrace for 2 hours instead of being in the stand, such is the demand for tickets in Thomond Park


And as for this:

leinster are riding the crest of a wave in terms of success i agree and have improved their support but unlike dublin footballers support levels for leinster depend on success

that's bull, I was in Croker for the Leinster final last year where 40,000 showed up in an 80,000 capacity stadium for a match & trophy everyone expected Dublin to win, which they did, so that 'success' argument really defeats what you're saying there 'unlike Dublin footballers support' my arse, ye barely filled half the stadium for a trophy ye won. People only really jumped on the bandwagon from Tyrone onwards in last year's championship

Hill, I can see you're a passionate Dublin footballer true & true and that's admirable but plenty of other teams in other sports have just as much if not more support.

Whether you realise it or not, you come on board with what should be an admirable passion for Dublin football but portray it as an ugly bias against all these other sports and end up with this unfounded prejudicial commentary. Hence I've lost respect for your posts in recent times, I'm not naive enough to think you give a monkeys, by the way

But sorry mate, there are plenty of teams with plenty of support out there, not just GAA and not just Dublin football

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 24/02/2012 15:25:47    1117144

Not in Limerick anayway. 11 Rugby clubs in Limerick with 67 GAA clubs. Not much left to explain.

Clubgaa (Limerick) - Posts: 879 - 24/02/2012 15:31:21    1117148

Coylers Elbow
County: Meath
Posts: 859

1117142 I'm sure Laois would draw a massive crowd too dhorse.

I'm sure with all this Morketing and loud music even Laois will fill Hyde park.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 24/02/2012 16:15:18    1117183

24/02/2012 15:31:21
Clubgaa
County: Limerick
Posts: 477

1117148
Not in Limerick anayway. 11 Rugby clubs in Limerick with 67 GAA clubs. Not much left to explain.

Not really, rugby is king in limerick city. not so much in the rest of the county but the city is dominated by rugby

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/02/2012 16:59:15    1117217

Clubgaa
County: Limerick
Posts: 477

1117148
Not in Limerick anayway. 11 Rugby clubs in Limerick with 67 GAA clubs. Not much left to explain.

_______________________________

That's a good point and I don't get how Limerick can be called a Rugby City when there are so many more GAA clubs playing football and hurling. It's like Drogheda being called a Rugby town now when there are more than 10 times as many GAA clubs.

BettystownRoyal (Meath) - Posts: 3353 - 24/02/2012 17:16:40    1117222

gigoer
County: Wexford
Posts: 1316

1117144
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 1472

munster support has definatly hit a platauex as when they were winning heineken cups tickets were very hard to get for thomond park games where as over the last couple of years a major decline in interest to go to matches has hit them,im allowing for the recession in this before ormond bites my head off but magners league games attract nobody anymore to thomond park

you must be joking or else you haven't checked your facts. I've brought the ould fella to Thomond Park 5 times over the last 12-24 months and only ever managed to get seated tickets once and always had to settle for making the pure 70 year old duffer stand on knackered knees on the Terrace for 2 hours instead of being in the stand, such is the demand for tickets in Thomond Park

im in limerick a lot with work and beleieve there is no oroblem in the last year or two getting tickets for any magners league or heineken cup group stage matches,
a home quarter final is when the bandwagon starts rolling down there.they were in the challenge cup last year at home in quarters and the ground was empty.
theres no problem getting tickets down there before matches any of the pubs such as the locke bar,the curraghower or the strand hotel you will get them easy

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 24/02/2012 17:46:29    1117237

24/02/2012 17:16:40
BettystownRoyal
County: Meath
Posts: 1736

1117222
Clubgaa
County: Limerick
Posts: 477

1117148
Not in Limerick anayway. 11 Rugby clubs in Limerick with 67 GAA clubs. Not much left to explain.

_______________________________

That's a good point and I don't get how Limerick can be called a Rugby City when there are so many more GAA clubs playing football and hurling. It's like Drogheda being called a Rugby town now when there are more than 10 times as many GAA clubs.

There is 11 rugby clubs in the city which is what i was talking about not the county in general. How many GAA clubs are in limerick city because then you can have a real contrast

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/02/2012 17:48:15    1117240

Yep, I know a good few Munster fans and they say that in recent years there's no problems getting tickets for Thomond Park outside of the really big knockout games in the Heineken Cup.
Gigoer you'd want to get your facts straight.

Coylers Elbow (Meath) - Posts: 1075 - 24/02/2012 17:51:02    1117241

leinster are riding the crest of a wave in terms of success i agree and have improved their support but unlike dublin footballers support levels for leinster depend on success

that's bull, I was in Croker for the Leinster final last year where 40,000 showed up in an 80,000 capacity stadium for a match & trophy everyone expected Dublin to win, which they did, so that 'success' argument really defeats what you're saying there 'unlike Dublin footballers support' my arse, ye barely filled half the stadium for a trophy ye won. People only really jumped on the bandwagon from Tyrone onwards in last year's championship

Hill, I can see you're a passionate Dublin footballer true & true and that's admirable but plenty of other teams in other sports have just as much if not more support.

Whether you realise it or not, you come on board with what should be an admirable passion for Dublin football but portray it as an ugly bias against all these other sports and end up with this unfounded prejudicial commentary. Hence I've lost respect for your posts in recent times, I'm not naive enough to think you give a monkeys, by the way

But sorry mate, there are plenty of teams with plenty of support out there, not just GAA and not just Dublin football

im referring to dublin not even reaching an all ireland final over the last 16 years and still filling croke park up until 2009 is that not a team getting huge support but not on the back of success,the recession is the massive problem last year for the leinster final attendance and it was 44 thousand at it and allowing for recession across the board in all sports i said didnt i,also there was no wexford support there unlike 2008.
im not listening to you talk on prejudicial commentary as it still remains that its only after i comment you seem to say this there have been pages of people airing the same views as me but only im prejudicial in your book,

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 24/02/2012 17:52:41    1117243

24/02/2012 17:46:29
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 1473

1117237
gigoer
County: Wexford
Posts: 1316

1117144
hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 1472

munster support has definatly hit a platauex as when they were winning heineken cups tickets were very hard to get for thomond park games where as over the last couple of years a major decline in interest to go to matches has hit them,im allowing for the recession in this before ormond bites my head off but magners league games attract nobody anymore to thomond park

you must be joking or else you haven't checked your facts. I've brought the ould fella to Thomond Park 5 times over the last 12-24 months and only ever managed to get seated tickets once and always had to settle for making the pure 70 year old duffer stand on knackered knees on the Terrace for 2 hours instead of being in the stand, such is the demand for tickets in Thomond Park

im in limerick a lot with work and beleieve there is no oroblem in the last year or two getting tickets for any magners league or heineken cup group stage matches,
a home quarter final is when the bandwagon starts rolling down there.they were in the challenge cup last year at home in quarters and the ground was empty.
theres no problem getting tickets down there before matches any of the pubs such as the locke bar,the curraghower or the strand hotel you will get them easy

Tickets have been much easier to get the last few years but thats been due to the recession where limerick has been really badly affected. WRT getting tickets easy, you could say that about any game in most sports where if you know where to go to you can find plenty of tickets dispite a game being "sold-out"

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/02/2012 17:52:57    1117244