But what if the lad who takes off the ref makes a mistake, would you have to substitute him aswell........I mean where would it all end?!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 21/11/2011 09:49:01    1072802

Ok so we are all against Referees. If there werent referees there'd be no matches. The whole point is that each county, province and croke park are supposed to have independent referee assessors going around the grounds and assessing all Referees. Therefore if one Ref is seen to below par they can deal with him/her. Though to me this is where our main weakness lies and frustration comes in. We all know who the bad or even biased refs are so the question to me is why are the GAA not using and acting on the assessors reports? If we would simply suspend or road refs for having a bad performance, especially during crucial matches then at least people wouldnt get so upset. Refs would see that they can be held accountable and supporters would see this also. Its time the reports where acted on and not just hide away in some filing cabinet.

ArmaghGael27 (Armagh) - Posts: 77 - 21/11/2011 09:55:02    1072809

Dub 01 "Referees have made some wowfull decisions at times there for they should also be punished for there errors"

Please retype 100 times (No copy and paste)

Referees have made some WOEFUL decisions at times; THEREFORE they should be punished for THEIR errors

KevHill (Antrim) - Posts: 271 - 21/11/2011 10:19:45    1072828

As already stated I do not condone any attack on any match official, but I do ask the question what happened to the many referees that made terrible decisions that cost in all probally a County an Ireland .
I can recall the Brogan free for Dublin who other than a Dublin man would have given it.

tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 4027 - 21/11/2011 10:20:47    1072829

arock
County: Dublin
Posts: 478

1072773 If a referee in any other sport consistently makes mistakes he is regraded what else can you do? Unfortunately in the GAA after a serious controversy involving some ref who is not up to the job, or makes a hash of a high profile game we still usually see the same muppet causing havoc elsewhere without any sanction. I witnessed a full mellee involving both teams at a match last year, entirely down to very poor officiating. The match abandoned and the same ref turns up to ref the previously abandoned match


The same ref cant do a refixture or replay between the same 2 teams so guess your telling vibs ..


ULSTERMAN

Yes i agree refs that be bad the whole time should be took off the list , but if a ref makes a genuine mistake the odd game surely he should not be throwing out , as everyone makes mistakes , however i think the standard is not that bad at the minute but there refs out there need improvement.

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 21/11/2011 16:51:59    1073149

The referees we all agree have a tough enough job without a muppet deciding to substitute him!

I did not see the game yesterday but one of the difficult decisions was a 'square ball'. This is about the fourth one this year where a refeeree has disallowed one. At this stage our officials need a very clear rule to make it easier and have less ructions afterwards. The square ball should be allowed. It is a stupid rule at this stage and is impossible for referees to implement correctly in every situation.

Was it for a National League a few years ago that when a player kicked the ball then a player could go into the square... this definitely made it easier and should be reverted to.

There is no doubt that some referees are not up to the standard of the game that they are refereeing... but how do you give experience to some in order to 'blood them' and yet ensure that they dont make mistkes? Its not exact science and the 'hurler on the ditch' always has a better vantage point. So... its a no win situation and in general most referees are there on merit and we all know that they will make mistakes. It will never be any other way.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1875 - 21/11/2011 18:58:23    1073239

REFS MAKE GOOD AND BAD DECISIONS ALL THE TIME some we like some we dont its all part and parcel of the game its why were here commenting on a game afterwards the sunday game debate about it and so on,there will always be mistakes and controversial decision made,it'll keep us all busy on here debating and analysing every mistake made.............

dubbydave. (Dublin) - Posts: 3927 - 21/11/2011 20:46:55    1073358

KevHill
County: Antrim
Posts: 196

1072828 Dub 01 "Referees have made some wowfull decisions at times there for they should also be punished for there errors"

Please retype 100 times (No copy and paste)

Referees have made some WOEFUL decisions at times; THEREFORE they should be punished for THEIR errors

dubbydave. (Dublin) - Posts: 3927 - 21/11/2011 21:10:37    1073384

forget the above post was going to reply something but then couldnt be bothered but accidently sent it.............

dubbydave. (Dublin) - Posts: 3927 - 21/11/2011 21:13:42    1073389

I would say if like what we have witnessed over the last few years I am sure that the captain of each team has say 4 appeals . I would add that each captains appeals stay alive ie he still retains his number should his call to the fourth official be found to be correct.
A rider could also be attached that after say two fundementally wrong refereeing decisions , that the ref be asked to step aside and that the one of the two linesmen takeover.
Minor calls that the ref got wrong not to count against him, like if he was unsighted for a pick up from the ground ect
This would be twofold.
No 1 It would right the wrong that was done.
No 2 It would ensure that the Referee after the first call knows that he was on notice.

Also an automatic lifetime ban for anyone that assaults a referee after a game to be introduced.

tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 4027 - 22/11/2011 12:43:15    1073646

I suppose it's better than the current system: run onto the pitch and give the ref a clather.

Floops (Dublin) - Posts: 1623 - 22/11/2011 13:36:24    1073691

The point is the standard of refereeing continues to be in decline.

I know an awful lot of people will not like it but perhaps technology is the way forward

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 22/11/2011 13:59:13    1073705

Tomsmith ,who decides the captains appeal is correct. sounds more like gladiators than a gaa match .ur just going round in circles . Part of the problem is refs bring umpire's from their own clubs to matches to officiate(happy little clique) Umpire's are less inclined to get involved in overruling refs decisions. There needs to be more scrutiny of a ref's performance after a game by a panel . if standard is not up to it maybe better coaching is required for that ref or group of ref's. let the onus be on the gaa panel to explain why a ref was selected if he was clearly not up to it as in case of Connaught match. A bit of accountability from Gaa is required and better training .

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 22/11/2011 15:19:46    1073778

tomsmith... What do you think the effect of changing a referee during a game would have.... ? It would bring the whole game to a new low in my opinion. The fact of the matter is that we are at present short of referes at local level in most counties and to bring in such a ridiculous change into games like you suggest would dwindle the current number refereeing and act as a deterrent for others taking up the whistle as referees would be made a total joke of

I go back to the point I made earleir that it is now almost impossible to referee games with the square ball rule as usually the referee is damned if he does and damned if he doesnt. Lets make it simpler and reintroduce the set up there a few years ago where once a ball has been kicked the player can go into the square before the ball.The current rules do not help the referee and as a consequence referees have been under extreme scrutiny and las t Sunday's Connacht game is a case in point.

As for the umpires going with a referee from his own club... where do you think they are going to come from? If you are suggesting that officials be gotten independently... well that is a different matter and these officials would need to be trained up and be seen to be independent. That is a fundamental change and would require a lot of coaching to bring guys up to the standard required. In general I think that umpires do an excellent job and are there with the referee through the wet and cold days in back pitches and they are there as they enjoy the game and like to help out their fellow club referee.

If you have special imported umpires for the big games where is the local game going to get umpires from? And they have little or no power even if they are imported!

I notice here in Carlow that the referees that are on inter county panels have their own umpires and they are excellent. If these referees were not allowed to bring their own to Leinster games who would umpire for them in local games?

I have never heard of umpires being trained... perhaps this could be done. But tomsmith... I think it would be disasterous to change a referee during a game unless he is injured and unable to continue. Imagine the jeering that such a move would make?

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1875 - 22/11/2011 18:15:04    1073931

Ath Cliath and Carlowman,

I read both your presentations on the subject matter, Should the referee be changed if he makes an error, I am of the opinion that both of you are afraid of the principle of change.
This is to commended in you as generally new trends or fancy's do not last and in the case of referees we have a tried and tested system in force that the referee views were sacrosanct.
This system worked at a time when play moved slowly and in relation to today's pace could be described as pedestrian pace.
But which I have to say that as things stands one wrong decision can have a bearing on a game which now moves very fast.
I feel that should a precieved victim of an injustice , that being a team member or management request for someone to view a matter take it a score given disallowed or sending off that an immediate decision should be made.
If you look at the number of red cards given and later resinded will that not point to system failure in refeering .
It is only a matter of time untill some redundant Legal eagle plucks a fat goose and gains notorierty in what was first raised by Tomsmith on H/S

tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 4027 - 22/11/2011 20:48:08    1074071

22/11/2011 20:48:08
tomsmith
County: Cavan
Posts: 1370

1074071 Ath Cliath and Carlowman,

I read both your presentations on the subject matter, Should the referee be changed if he makes an error, I am of the opinion that both of you are afraid of the principle of change.
This is to commended in you as generally new trends or fancy's do not last and in the case of referees we have a tried and tested system in force that the referee views were sacrosanct.
This system worked at a time when play moved slowly and in relation to today's pace could be described as pedestrian pace.
But which I have to say that as things stands one wrong decision can have a bearing on a game which now moves very fast.
I feel that should a precieved victim of an injustice , that being a team member or management request for someone to view a matter take it a score given disallowed or sending off that an immediate decision should be made.
If you look at the number of red cards given and later resinded will that not point to system failure in refeering .
It is only a matter of time untill some redundant Legal eagle plucks a fat goose and gains notorierty in what was first raised by Tomsmith on H/S

Tomsmith, your idea of an appeals system would not work in hurling as the tempo of the game is too fast, i guess you are getting the idea from the NFL in america but american football is a play by play game with stoppagea after every tackle etc.
Yes 1 wrong decision can impact on whether a team wins or loses but i think your wrong to suggest a team be allowed query a sending off as that just undermines a referees authority, which is not needed(unless the sending off was very blatant favouritism from the officials of 1 side over the other). A video referee should be in place at the top level who the ref can query on issues like foul play, etc as in rugby.
I dont think the amount of red cards given and rescinded points to a failure as many of those rescinded are rescinded because of technocalities over signatures etc
In my opinion referees are not given enough support by the top brass and are allowed be hung out to dry by the media, supporters and players, management and if a mistake is made are dropped without any consideration

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 23/11/2011 11:00:31    1074198

ormondbannerman

I see that you state that my views / suggestion would undermind the referee, (I will not use cut and paste as I feel it is lasy contributors style). Far from it I feel that if he the referee be 40 yards from an incindent as some press allege following a recent square ball high profile decision that a fourth official with a TV camera would give him time to make up his mind square ball or not.
Now the mood of the crowd behind the goals could also be influential and how far he was from the Exit

tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 4027 - 23/11/2011 14:46:54    1074382

tomsmith... you seem to believe that I and athclath are against the 'principle of change'... Forgive me if I judge myself, but I am the opposite I am for change! But I am for change that would make the rules more practical and easier for the referee and the public plus of course the players.

I watched the Conaught final for the first time on TG4 late last night(suffered in work today as a result!) I watched the referee and the key decision of the game, namely the disallowed goal.... he was close enough to the action all day and I would not criticise him for the call he made. Its the rule that is the problem.... other more prominent officials this year have also gotten this one wrong and in Croke Park and not on a sodden pitch where it is difficult to make up ground.

The point of your argument is that referees should be substituted if and when they make a glaring error. I dont think this is practical, in fact its ridiculous and as I have posted earlier it would have a detrimental effect on the recruitment and morale of referees.

When they make serious errors in a game then I fully agree that they should be demoted so that their next performance is hopefully a lot better.

By the way I thought that the Connacht club game was very difficult to referee and got harder as the respect of players for their opponents bordered on the contemptous at times. I saw one Corofin player throwing the ball over the barrier so as to stop his opponent taking a line ball! How churlish and pitififul! At least 2 players in my opinion 'feigned injury'. again very difficult to referee such a game.

The comentators made the point that the referee was in fact becoming the centre of attention.... he was as the players fouled ad nauseum, so what was he to do? Ignore the fouls? I think he did his best in a very difficult game and where both teams were not playing the game in its proper spirit. It is a failing of players and clubs of late that they resort to tactics that actually act as flagrant snippets in games that build tension and sometimes boil over as a result. Its something that has been there particularly in football and needs to be addressed. Tom I still dont agree with you...!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1875 - 23/11/2011 17:44:39    1074538

Maybe introduce another referee to issue red and yellow cards to bad referee's lol. Come on now ref's have a hard enough job, if a few hot heads can't handle if sometimes they get it wrong, thats their fault.

Fiatach (Donegal) - Posts: 13 - 23/11/2011 18:53:54    1074601

tomsmith,
"afraid of the principle of change". don't think so, because of the pace of the modern game and with a lot more cuteness from players and at least one manager wanting his players to get other players sent off, referee's need all the assistance they can get i.e video ref in stand who can relay a tight decision back after viewing it a couple of times.not undermined . i guess you never played gaa tomsmith .a captain with 4 appeals is daft ,captain of team that is winning can just run down the clock by using up his appeals.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 23/11/2011 21:28:40    1074755