You didn't answer my question Seamus.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 22/11/2011 11:25:20    1073558

Abhainn

I'm tolerant of everyone's right to not believe in God. If a group of atheist parents want to set up an atheist primary school, I absolutely think that it should get state funding, as our Constitution guarantees that parents wishes should be respected.

But I have little respect for atheism as a philosophy. Firstly, if God didn't create the universe, who did? Atheists believe that everything was made out of nothing, by nothing. That's an incredibly silly idea. Secondly, atheism has no moral code, other than that which individuals create for themselves. Christianity isn't perfect-as shown by the sins of many of its followers-but it offers a moral framework to live by, which atheism does not.

Finally, as I already mentioned earlier, so many atheists are violent. Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, etc. These atheists have killed more people in the 20th century than Christians have killed in every century combined. Many atheists are peaceful, but a good number of wicked and aggressive.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 22/11/2011 11:54:51    1073595

Seamus89


Firstly, if God didn't create the universe, who did? Seamus, saying that atheists have a silly philosophy is a bit ridiculous. Disagree with it, fine, but to most atheists the idea that an all powerful god created everything is the silly idea, but I do not presume to lecture Catholics on their personal faith.

The idea of a moral framework is a dodgy one - everyone makes their own decisions in life, some people good, some bad - I believe morality is a universal quality, and one that is not confined to Christianity.

Finally, and most ridiculously - your link to a 'good' number of atheists being wicked and agressive. I believe saying that religion is the cause of all wars (as some believe) is stupid - it is mans inhumanity to man, and mans greed which are the constant movers behind agression. Saying atheists are to blame though is sad - every American president who has launched a war has been a god fearing man - as have most English PMs. The papal states were historically among the most vicious and violent in middle Europe. This is not to say that it was their faith that drove them to do what they did, anymore than it was a distrust of Christianity that drove Hitler to do what hedid.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 22/11/2011 13:07:51    1073658

Seamus, google humanism there like a good man. Religion does not have a monopoly on ethics and morals. To suggest that mass murderers committed their crimes simply because they did not believe in a god is also ridiculous. There are hundreds of examples of christian mass murderers. Evil people are evil, independent of religious belief or lack thereof.

Snuffy, everything you wrote is condescending nonsense and completely false. It is a complete myth that atheists revert to catholicism when close to death.

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 22/11/2011 13:14:45    1073666

That O'Doherty is an a*se Seamus.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 24/11/2011 20:45:31    1075365

Ah Brend he's alright. He's another Kevin Myers, if Myers had been from Crumlin and hadn't been to college.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 24/11/2011 21:01:11    1075378

morris
County: USA
Posts: 277

I could agree with a lot of what you said up to and including banning religion from all schools, that is peoples own choice to do this, it is their fundemental right, only a totalitarian state would prevent this. The school my daughter goes too is a catholic school and they have made it clear if the state intefers with any of their religious ethos they will become a fee paying school. Which is what has happened in every state that has tried this all they have done is to create elite religious schools, even in wonderful France. If you don't like religious schools don't send your child to one.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4955 - 24/11/2011 22:03:53    1075442

Arock

In New York City, you have a well-funded public school system, and a Catholic school system that is constantly struggling to stay afloat. Not the elite schools, the parochial schools, the inner city schools, where black and Hispanic children receive a much better education than they ever would in the public school system. Many poorer parents work every hour God sends them to try and pay for the relatively modest fees to the Catholic schools, because they know that a Catholic education can better educate their children (whether they're Catholic or not, the vast majority of blacks aren't) and keep them on the straight and narrow. If the government would give school vouchers to parents, it would make sending them to decent non-public schools much easier, and it would greatly improve the education system. Thankfully, more and more states are introducing vouchers, and as soon as Obama and the Democrats are turfed out of office we could see the program being expanded on a federal level.

This trend is replicated across America, and across the world. In Britain, huge numbers of non-religious parents (Nick Clegg and David Miliband for example) send their children to Catholic or Church of England schools, and the Christian schools consistently outperform their secular counterparts in the league tables (em, I wonder why teachers unions are opposed to them...). If the Government over there tried to ban religious schools, there would be uproar among parents, including many atheist ones.

Of course, Morris's hatred of the Church and religion in general won't allow him to recognise this.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 25/11/2011 09:17:16    1075460

Why do you think private schools outperform public schools Seamus? Is it because they indoctrinate their pupils in a particular religion or because they have more funding, raised from charging parents fees?

I would have thought parents who pay fees for their child's education are far more likely to help with homework, and to discipline their children when they are underperforming in school. Nothing to do with the religious ethos of schools.

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 25/11/2011 10:00:14    1075481

That is just you ignoring the post completely, if you even bothered to read it.

In Britain, state-funded secular schools and state-funded Christian schools have the SAME amount of funding, yet Christian schools outperform secular ones. In America, many Catholic parochial schools operate on much smaller budgets than bloated public sector run schools, and yet achieve better results.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 25/11/2011 10:08:23    1075487

Seamus, look at the demographic attending private schools and the demographic attending public schools. I'll spell it out in the simplest terms for you since you seem to have trouble comprehending. Rich people send their kids to private schools, poor people send their kids to public schools. Rich kids perform better in school than poor kids.

Do you honestly believe a few extra classes of religion lead to improved performance in other subjects?

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 25/11/2011 10:12:54    1075490

In Britain, state-funded secular schools and state-funded Christian schools have the SAME amount of funding, yet Christian schools outperform secular ones

If you're not going to bother to address this point, there's no point in me discussing it further.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 26/11/2011 14:37:36    1075983

I have already addressed your point Seamus, you must have missed that part. Obviously if there are two schools, one where parents are more involved in helping children with homework, who attend regular parent/teacher meetings, who discipline their children if they fail to attend/don't do their homework, where children who disrupt classes are expelled, then that school is going to outperform the school down the street which is not at all selective in it's admissions policy.

I know you are a politics student who doesn't know the difference between the UN and the EU, but do you honestly believe that a few classes of religion a week can make children perform better in other subjects?

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 27/11/2011 13:43:56    1076244

Obviously if there are two schools, one where parents are more involved in helping children with homework, who attend regular parent/teacher meetings, who discipline their children if they fail to attend/don't do their homework, where children who disrupt classes are expelled, then that school is going to outperform the school down the street which is not at all selective in it's admissions policy.

Why would that apply in Britain? What's the difference between parents who send their children to Christian schools (a large majority of whom don't go to church) and parents who send their children to secular schools? And are you saying Christian schools are naturally more disciplined? If that's the case, you've answered your own question.

All sorts of children from all sorts of families go to Christian schools or secular schools in Britain, where funding for schools is equal, and the Christian schools outperform their secular counterparts. Just as Catholic schools in the poorest parts of America outperform their secular counterparts. But you still would like to follow Castro (whose policy towards gay rights is his one saving grace) by banning religious education.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 27/11/2011 14:11:38    1076255

morris
County: USA
Posts: 280

You need to bear in mind that the vast majority of the people that got us into our economic mess today went to religous schools, as did most of the prison population of the country, not to mention all of the people involved in Clerical sex abuse and it's cover up.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 27/11/2011 14:40:49    1076265