The one thing that struck me about the documentary was that Ian O'Doherty appeared to doubt his atheist principles when he ran out of a mosque.

He looked startled and explained that he had felt the urge to stand up and bless himself .

Jack_Sparrow (Westmeath) - Posts: 1043 - 21/11/2011 13:50:15    1073008

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 2704
Now some people aren't religious, I get that, that's fine. But the ones who want to impose atheism on the rest of us should treated with contempt, if not force.

____

What about the ones who try to impose religion on the rest of us?

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 21/11/2011 13:58:32    1073017

What about the ones who try to impose religion on the rest of us?

Please give me an example Abhainn, I honestly don't know what you're referring to. Islamic extremism perhaps?

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 21/11/2011 14:51:11    1073065

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 2707

1073065 What about the ones who try to impose religion on the rest of us?

Please give me an example Abhainn, I honestly don't know what you're referring to. Islamic extremism perhaps
____

Maybe start with Ireland in the 1950's.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 21/11/2011 15:56:59    1073108

link

Thank you Youtube.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 21/11/2011 16:36:55    1073138

Seamus, religion was imposed on me from the day I was born & baptized. It continued throughout my childhood where I was forced (through lack of choice) to attend a religious school. Even now as an adult atheists are discriminated against in Ireland and elsewhere in the western world.

I, like 99% of atheists, don't wish to impose my beliefs on anyone, but it is about time religious people stopped imposing their beliefs on me.

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 21/11/2011 18:46:44    1073229

Seamus, that clip only reaffirms the general belief that O'Doherty is an a*se.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 21/11/2011 18:53:06    1073233

Maybe start with Ireland in the 1950's.

At the present time Abhainn, that's what I meant. Sorry, should have specified that in the earlier post.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 21/11/2011 18:53:37    1073234

Seamus, religion was imposed on me from the day I was born & baptized. It continued throughout my childhood where I was forced (through lack of choice) to attend a religious school. Even now as an adult atheists are discriminated against in Ireland and elsewhere in the western world.

I, like 99% of atheists, don't wish to impose my beliefs on anyone, but it is about time religious people stopped imposing their beliefs on me.

Correct me if I'm wrong Badmonkey, but didn't you invoke God on another thread, or was it this one, only yesterday?

If your parents baptised you, take it up with them, and don't come on here moaning about it. Everyone has some story about their parents screwing up their lives. Mine made me eat brocolli even.

As for your basic point...I agree actually. Too many Church schools, there should be a CHOICE for parents. Catholic schools and Educate Together schools, then let the parents decide. And that's exactly what Archbishop Martin and the Church wants.

But how in God's name (oh, sorry, don't mean to offend you) are atheists discriminated against? There are a few religious oaths for office here and there, and that's it? Must have been very hard for poor Michael D. to utter the words "Almighty God"...

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 21/11/2011 18:58:41    1073240

Brend

Your point being...

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 21/11/2011 18:59:34    1073242

Seamus, no matter how many times you repeat it, I am not badmonkey. Just because two posters have a similar view of the catholic church does not mean we are one and the same. Your repeating it just exposes you for the WUM you are.

I strongly disagree with yourself and Diarmuid Martin that there should be a choice between religious and educate together schools. There should be no such thing as religious schools. Children should not have any religion imposed on them before their minds are fully developed.

How are atheists discriminated against you say? Well the aforementioned lack of availability of non-religious schools for their children would be a pretty big one. And yes, the oaths are another example of discrimination. I seem to remember Ireland having a civil war over an oath before. We also have a law in this country against "blasphemy", there are religious prayers said in our parliament, and two minutes a day on our national broadcaster are devoted to a religious prayer.

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 21/11/2011 20:50:06    1073363

I strongly disagree with yourself and Diarmuid Martin that there should be a choice between religious and educate together schools. There should be no such thing as religious schools. Children should not have any religion imposed on them before their minds are fully developed.

How are atheists discriminated against you say? Well the aforementioned lack of availability of non-religious schools for their children would be a pretty big one. And yes, the oaths are another example of discrimination. I seem to remember Ireland having a civil war over an oath before. We also have a law in this country against "blasphemy", there are religious prayers said in our parliament, and two minutes a day on our national broadcaster are devoted to a religious prayer.

1. It's Archishop Martin, or Dr. Martin, or His Grace. You don't know him well enough to use Diarmuid.

2. There's an anti-Catholic bigoted remark right there. 'There should be no religious schools'. My father and mother are believing Catholics, who paid their taxes always. HOW DARE YOU SAY THEY SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED HAVE THEIR CHILDREN EDUCATED IN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS? You don't like religious schools, send your kids to Educate Together. But don't force your anti-Catholic bigotry on the rest of us.

3. At what point was your mind fully developed? Children should be raised the way their parents want them to be raised, it's not for you to IMPOSE your atheism by preventing children being taught about religion. That is something that was done in the Soviet Union.

4. There are religious oaths, and religious prayers in parliaments the world over. Don't like, don't join in. Also, a second ago you were attacking the right to a religious education, now you're complaining that your rights are being infringed because there isn't enough schools to your liking. You can't have it both ways. You either support a choice, or you want to IMPOSE your beliefs onto others. I support a choice.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 21/11/2011 21:19:00    1073396

Re: Seamus,

1. I take it this is a feeble attempt at humor.
2. How is saying impressionable children should not be indoctrinated "bigoted" exactly? There aren't nearly enough educate together schools in Ireland, many parents do not have the option of sending their children to such schools. Ireland's education system is contrary to the UN's International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, something we are actually signed up to.
3. 25 is the age most experts would agree a person's brain is fully developed. I never said that children should be prevented from learning about religion, but they should not have a religion chosen for them.
4. Are you saying that a person shouldn't join in the democratic process if they don't agree with religious oaths? A religious education is not a right. I have already explained that I do not want to impose anything on anybody. Teach every religion in school and let people make their own minds up, do not IMPOSE one religion on them.

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 21/11/2011 21:53:15    1073441

1. I take it this is a feeble attempt at humor.
2. How is saying impressionable children should not be indoctrinated "bigoted" exactly? There aren't nearly enough educate together schools in Ireland, many parents do not have the option of sending their children to such schools. Ireland's education system is contrary to the UN's International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, something we are actually signed up to.
3. 25 is the age most experts would agree a person's brain is fully developed. I never said that children should be prevented from learning about religion, but they should not have a religion chosen for them.
4. Are you saying that a person shouldn't join in the democratic process if they don't agree with religious oaths? A religious education is not a right. I have already explained that I do not want to impose anything on anybody. Teach every religion in school and let people make their own minds up, do not IMPOSE one religion on them.

Indoctrinated? How are they indoctrinated by learning about religion? Is it political indoctrination to teach primary school children about Irish history?

UN's International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights? Where exactly does it say that religious education isn't allowed? Bear in mind that I already said that I think there should be more Educate Together schools, as does the Archbishop of Dublin.

It's up to parents to decide what religion their child is raise in, not you.

Finally, could you answer my question? Why should you decide what my father and mother want for the education of their children? They are taxpayers, and their money should go to the schools that educate their children, as they wish.

Your dislike of religion and the Catholic Church (probably brought on by its teachings on homosexuality) is obvious. But the vast majority of Irish people want a choice, and a huge number want Catholic schools. The Irish Constitution gives them that right, not some UN rag. It really doesn't matter what you think about religious education, because you're in a small minority. God bless.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 22/11/2011 09:28:39    1073488

I feel sorry for atheists, they have a spiritual void in their life, what will you do when you are called by the almighty to be judged before him?

Sergeant_Slash (Cavan) - Posts: 2182 - 22/11/2011 10:14:08    1073504

'Atheism'....lets face it, its just something fashionable to be for some folk!!

Its a 'talking point' or just to be 'something a bit different' for most of them who wouldnt be long reaching for the rosary beads when the brown stuff hits the fan!!
Thats why I dont pass much heed on Irish folk who call themselves atheists!!

Atheism is to Irish people, what 'shiraz' was to Irish people during the Celtic Tiger!!......we tried 'something different' for a while, but ended up coming right back to the oul 'Blue Nun'!!
Scratch the surface of any so called Irish 'atheist' and you will find a Catholic with an inferiority complex....simple as!!
Thats why when it comes to Irish 'atheists'......(pardon the pun, but) nobody 'believes' them!!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 22/11/2011 10:32:47    1073513

Of course the education primary school children receive is indoctrination Seamus. They are immediately told that a god exists (despite there actually being absolutely no evidence to back this up) and make pledges they could not possibly comprehend or understand when they take the catholic sacraments at an extremely young and vulnerable age.

According to the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights the Irish education system does not uphold freedom from discrimination, freedom of conscience, the rights of the child and equality before the law.

You clearly missed my point when I said That I believe children should not be raised in ANY religion. They should learn about all religions and make their own minds up when they are mature enough to make that decision.

What makes you think my dislike of religion is due primarily to the attitudes of the religious to homosexuality? You showed your true colours with your statement "it doesn't matter what you think because you are in a small minority".

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 22/11/2011 10:36:08    1073519

Sergeant...Snuff...well said.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 22/11/2011 10:36:19    1073521

Seamus89
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 2720

1073521 Sergeant...Snuff...well said.

___


Do you not think that by endorsing their complete dismissal of atheism as a choice for anyone that you are then guilty of what you yourself preach, that you are for choice for everyone?

I agree with a lot of what you say re: religious education etc, but what Slash and Snuff said is in poor taste given that it undermines an individuals ability to reach their own conclusions. I am an atheist, but I respect anyone who believes anything - that respect should be both ways though no?

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 22/11/2011 10:55:17    1073534

Abhainn

You're an atheist? I'm surprised. Wasn't long ago you were on talking about the need for women priests...as you said, I respect people who don't believe in God. I just don't like the growing atheist/secular intolerance towards religion and religious education, etc.

In my Ireland, there would be lots of Catholic schools and lots of Educate Together schools, as well as other types, and parents would decide where their kids went. There would be religious oaths for office, but there would be an opt-out for non-believers. There would be prayers in the Dail, but no one would be forced to join in.

That however is not the Ireland that Ivana Bacik and co. want. They want a secular Ireland where the rights of religious believers are trampled on and where our Christian heritage has been watered down completely, and I'm completely opposed to that.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 22/11/2011 11:12:50    1073549