National Forum

Is it time to ban Gaelscoils?

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omaghredhand
County: Tyrone
Posts: 3208
Maybe it is not Irish that is the problem but the way that it is taught?


If people want to learn Irish as a hobbie - thats fine. No matter how well or badly irish is taught - there is still never going to be any practical application for it outside of the taxpayer funded gaeltacht industry.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 31/08/2011 14:57:01    1023975

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The ones down south actually disgust me, yous are more british than the british, People up north fought and are fighting for their children to learn the irish language, yet you are saying to ban gaelscoils? If the british government took over your country and said ban all gaelscoils you would be the first to complain, Seriously...

Orlaith (Derry) - Posts: 4282 - 31/08/2011 15:00:47    1023980

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nil.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 31/08/2011 15:02:09    1023984

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Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 1287

how often do you use algebra, trigonometry, equations etc? Why arent you calling for maths to be banned? The reason of course is because all knowledge is useful in it's own right even if not every person has the ability and/or want to use that particular knowledge.


Eh no - the reason is that maths is the basic tool through which huge technological and medical advances have been made. Hippy dippy nonsense - we are the world....

Hopefully some day you will understand.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 31/08/2011 15:15:51    1023999

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Now Orlaith your point is partially valid but the sweeping dismissal of all people from the South is not.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 31/08/2011 15:18:48    1024010

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Orlaith
County: Derry
Posts: 4191

If the british government took over your country and said ban all gaelscoils you would be the first to complain, Seriously...


I think if the saxon foe were to attempt incursions onto our sovereign land, we'd be too busy engaging the enemy to be worrying about the tuischel guinedach.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 31/08/2011 15:19:13    1024012

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It's a fair enough point for Horse to make, issues around nationhood and cultural revival will always be disputed.

Irish was never a dead language though, there were always native speakers. Hebrew is the only language to have been revived from zero native speakers. It's just a question of national identity and culture. On the example of the GAA, well sport is sport, would it not be better to ditch Gaelic Games and start promoting international sports to get us a bit more worldwide success?

It's looking like any second or third language is of immense benefit to cognitive development, we're only really scratching at the surface at the moment. Why Irish and not other foreign languages? Well it is our native language, and we don't know which nations will be economically powerful in 100 years, we could all learn Chinese only for it to be useless in 50 years time (remember it's only over the past 10/15 years that the Chinese became an economic power). What holds a lot of people up from learning foreign languages is that they don't realise they are able to, growing up bi-lingual would encourage a more progressive outlook towards getting more.

I would say that what's held the Irish language up the most was a lack of Irish-medium schools, we were all taught it as a foreign language/school subject with no immersion in that language environment, and everyone generally has a dislike of school subjects. It's a whole different attitude when it's the language of conversation, it's not the teacher or the nun speaking it, it's your friends. That's a massive difference.

Irish language schools currently have higher primary school marks in Maths and English than English language equivalents in the North (Department of Education figures), which is quite significant considering that most of their children are from 'deprived' communities.

Benandonner (Antrim) - Posts: 459 - 31/08/2011 15:20:20    1024014

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Horse
By your logic then what's the use of learning English if you are forced to live in China, what's the use of learning maths if you are forced to be a ski instructor.

Horse is right, we should do away with education altogether and only train people when we know how exactly how their lives will turn out in the mean time we could enrol our kids in to buildings where learned people could enrich them while they are waiting. Perhaps they could experience the culture of their own land in spoken tounge and music and perhaps they could be emerged in some disciplines let's call it the 3 Rs for handiness sake.


Why did no one think of this before

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 31/08/2011 15:23:49    1024020

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Eh no - the reason is that maths is the basic tool through which huge technological and medical advances have been made. Hippy dippy nonsense - we are the world....

Hopefully some day you will understand.


Horse you appear to have failed to grasp the basic point I was making, I am well aware of the importance of maths. I gave it as an example to demonstrate how ludicrous a proposition it is to wish to inhibit the pursuit of knowledge. My recognition of the benefit of knowledge is apparently 'hippy dippy nosense'. What a fantastic counter argument. Well done.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 31/08/2011 15:25:59    1024023

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To be fair Orlaith the reason why Irish is way more important up north than it is for us down south is simply because we aren't under british control anymore, so we don't need it to have a proper sense of identity. Its the same reason why Welsh is far more important to the Welsh people and Basque is far more important to the Basque people than Irish is to us.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 31/08/2011 15:26:20    1024024

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ochonlir
County: Cavan
Posts: 3410

Horse is right, we should do away with education altogether


Yes, thats exactly what i said.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 31/08/2011 15:35:31    1024031

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Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 1289

Horse you appear to have failed to grasp the basic point I was making, I am well aware of the importance of maths. I gave it as an example to demonstrate how ludicrous a proposition it is to wish to inhibit the pursuit of knowledge. My recognition of the benefit of knowledge is apparently 'hippy dippy nosense'. What a fantastic counter argument. Well done.


My issue with your comment was the fact that you conveniently ignored the fact that I was suggesting that the specific knowledge being aquired should be something more useful than Irish. Not that the kids should be given an extra hour each day to stare at the telly.

The discussion is about the utility of learning irish and whether that should be heavily funded to the detriment/avoidance of other areas of learning. A point lost on you.

Well done.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 31/08/2011 15:40:48    1024036

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Benandonner
County: Antrim
Posts: 404

Irish language schools currently have higher primary school marks in Maths and English than English language equivalents in the North (Department of Education figures), which is quite significant considering that most of their children are from 'deprived' communities.


This is a very interesting point and one that would definitely cause me to reassess my opinion. Certainly anything that helps deprived kids get onto a higher academic plane is to be applauded.

Seperately, I have heard anecdotally that working class unionists tend to have an unenthusiastic attitude towards education, because of generations of protected industrial jobs (since gone). Any views?

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 31/08/2011 15:49:14    1024045

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My issue with your comment was the fact that you conveniently ignored the fact that I was suggesting that the specific knowledge being aquired should be something more useful than Irish. Not that the kids should be given an extra hour each day to stare at the telly.

The discussion is about the utility of learning irish and whether that should be heavily funded to the detriment/avoidance of other areas of learning. A point lost on you.

Well done.


Now in fairness Horse this last post was more reasoned and in contrast to your original post on the thread which seemed to be deliberatly contoversial and insulting to the language hence my responses.

I think Bennadonner has already raised some valid practical points which I would echo. The main point that needs to be reiterated is that gaelscoils do not in any way inhibit a child's grasp of english, nor do they focus more on Irish to the detriment of other subjects. They simply teach the normal cirriculum through the medium of Irish. Therefore a child should learn all the subjects they would already learn in an English speaking school but in contrast in a Gaelscoil he/she would have the added benefit of improving their lingustic abilities by learning a second language. It's really a win-win situation.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 31/08/2011 16:06:22    1024067

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I'd be interested to know what is the rate of unemployment in gaeltacht areas. Considering how much we spend on social welfare i think that should be of much higher concern to those who care about the location of their taxes. Also there are some racist attitudes being expressed in this thread. People who live in gaeltacht areas are a different cultural entity to everyone else and they are basically being labelled as having no worth to this country.

mikeoc (Kerry) - Posts: 567 - 31/08/2011 16:07:55    1024068

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imagine if somebady heeded horse and we banned education altogether as he said a couple of posts back.

future generations wouldn'd be able to read posts on hoganstand

they could however watch youtube but without the benefit of knowing what was coming up (possibly a good thing)

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 31/08/2011 16:08:47    1024070

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Seperately, I have heard anecdotally that working class unionists tend to have an unenthusiastic attitude towards education, because of generations of protected industrial jobs (since gone). Any views?

This is probably true. I havent looked at the figures but i'm sure if you studied the religious affiliation of students attending colleges in the North over the past 20-30 years you would see that Catholics would be in the majority despite being a minority overall in the North.

Ironically working class Unionists are at the forefront of opposition in respect of changes to education which are designed to eradicate inequality within the education sector. I recall reading the crazy statistic that only 1 child had passed the 11 plus exam in the Shankill Road in a period of 4 or 5 years. Here's a piece I found on the web:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/shankill-road-was-always-tough-and-its-getting-tougher-696750.html

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 31/08/2011 16:16:43    1024079

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Learning through a second langauge has huge advantages. It improves cognitive abilities and the ability to later pick up a 3rd of 4th language.

It can be extremely beneficial to children who come from backgrounds were literacy skills are not high. The extra cognitive thought needed to learn in the second language replaces the lack the cognitive activities in the home language that are sorely lacking in some households.

Learning through a second langauge is not unique to Ireland. It is also quite popular in Canada (French) and in Catalonia (Catalan opposed to Spanish). Now there is an argument that French and Catalan are more useful in those countries/territories. But the same learning advantages apply to oideachas lán Gaeilge here in Ireland.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13837 - 31/08/2011 16:26:02    1024089

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Horse,Your sweeping generalisations are ill founded and highly offensive. I'm surprised threads of such prejudice and negative intent are allowed.

mikeoc (Kerry) - Posts: 567 - 31/08/2011 16:29:31    1024096

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Orlaith
County: Derry
Posts: 4191

1023980
The ones down south actually disgust me, yous are more british than the british, People up north fought and are fighting for their children to learn the irish language, yet you are saying to ban gaelscoils? If the british government took over your country and said ban all gaelscoils you would be the first to complain, Seriously...


If you've got a point to make, make it. Don't resort to ridiculous comments.

Is féidir leat iarracht níos fearr a dhéanamh a chailín.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13837 - 31/08/2011 16:29:34    1024098

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