I was just wondering what are the fundamental differences between the weaker counties and stronger counties? I read an article on this about Jamesie O Connor praising the application of the Wicklow hurlers. Now in football though there is a clear hierarchy, the differences between Kerry and Wicklow for example though big are not nearly as vast as it would be between a division 1 team in hurling and a div 2-3-4 side. If counties put in the same effort in training and have been playing since childhood then they should have the fundameltal skills so why are the likes of Kilkenny and Tipperary so far ahead of the rest?

Rosfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 778 - 15/04/2011 20:26:55    912518

Kerry have shown the way from division 3. It's no surprise Wicklow are pushing for promotion. Division Two is where they'll find out more about themselves. Kildare seem to have slipped a bit this year. Division 3 should get a bit stronger in the next few seasons with the experience some counties have gained in division 2. If there was two up two down it might help things more.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8852 - 15/04/2011 20:41:43    912531

Thats missing the point. I am wondering why the gap in hurling is so vast when counties in the lower diviions train just as hard with players who have the same love and interest in the game and who have played it just as long?

Rosfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 778 - 15/04/2011 20:59:22    912546

"Now in football though there is a clear hierarchy, the differences between Kerry and Wicklow for example though big are not nearly as vast as it would be between a division 1 team in hurling and a div 2-3-4 side"

It would take years and huge work for a weak hurling county to develop to the level of the div 1 teams as the skill levels required are much tougher to tune to the highest level in hurling whereas I feel its much easier to develop footballers to the required standard. I would much rather try to win an AI with the Kilkenny footballers than with the Mayo hurlers.

although having said that, for the life of me I cannot understand how the KK footballers are so diabolical. I mean to be loosing division 4 games by so much hints at something being dramatically wrong. I can only imagine what would happen if they ever have to face one of the top teams going full tilt!!

tj09 (Cork) - Posts: 481 - 15/04/2011 21:19:22    912560

This enhances my point. The majority of division 4 teams train 3-4 times a week and also do their own training on top of club football. If a good div 4 side played a good div 1 side it would not be a total landslide while if the same happened in hurling then it would be a massacre. My point again is, Why are counties in the lower counties who apply themselves in the same manner as the top sides just not nearly as proficient in skills? Its just to generate opinion.

Rosfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 778 - 15/04/2011 21:34:58    912573

Compare the playing population and resources for hurling in Division One counties like Cork or Kilkenny with the likes of Cavan or Fermanagh. The reason should become apparent.

By comparison, football is about a hundred times more popular in a Division 4 football county like Carlow or Fermanagh than hurling is in its Division 4 counties.
There is only one Irish county where the popularity of football is as low as the popularity of hurling in its weaker counties. That's Kilkenny, and it's no coincidence that Kilkenny are the only county where the kind of gap between counties that is seen in hurling becomes apparent in football.

Sionnach (Kerry) - Posts: 77 - 15/04/2011 21:44:28    912581

Kilkenny-- Strong.
Cavan -- Weak !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 15/04/2011 21:48:16    912586

I suggest reading some of the top hurlers books. Take for example Donal Og's. He talks of how hurling was like a religion in his parish of Cloyne as he was growing up. Every evening was spent on the pitch playing hurling against his friends and neighbours, in his secondary school days playing for the school hurling team was more important to him than his leaving or anything else.

This constant focus on hurling is whats missing in these division four teams, I suppose its tradition. These area's just have a tradition of hurling so the young people will pick up on it and develop their skills. The weaker counties somehow need to build a tradition of hurling which in die hard footballing places can be a very hard job. In football i suppose you don't need as wide a skill set and often good hurlers are also good footballers.

tj09 (Cork) - Posts: 481 - 15/04/2011 21:49:30    912588

The pace of hurling in the lower divisions is slower than division 1 hurling, this stems from their county championships, the faster the pace of the game the better your first touch has to be, first touch is all important in hurling, also when football is the main game in nearly all of the counties outside of division 1 and maybe 3 in division 2 its not going to get the same funding that it gets in the top tier hurling counties, funding is very important to implement good underage structures, they are all important now in developing good young hurlers into good senior hurlers, training is fine but it has to be structured from a young age to develop these hurlers. I am sure somebody else will have other ideas to add also.

tipptothetop (Tipperary) - Posts: 531 - 15/04/2011 21:56:11    912592

It's important first to have a big playing pool. Lower divisions in football have a bigger playing pool than lower divisions in hurling.
Next it's going to come down to the standard of training then as well with the players at a county's disposal. When Kerry hurling had a decent run in 2003, the manager at the time had an emphasis on quick flicks etc.

In 2003, Kerry made it to the 4th round of the qualifiers only to go down to Limerick 1-14 tp 0-24 in Austin Stack Park in Tralee. Along the way the beat Westmeath, Carlow and beaten Ulster finalists Derry. The wins over Westmeath and Carlow was the first time a Kerry team won 2 Championship games in a row. It was also the first time a Kerry hurling team played more championship games then the football team.

Kerry declined after that year but that year showed under a good trainer and a system which gave lower rank counties a chance in the McCarthy, teams like this can enjoy a bit of success.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8852 - 16/04/2011 09:34:16    912609

1. Tradition (as pointed out here it's not enough to train hurling, you have to live and breath hurling and playing hurling matches out in the field or pucking the ball around outside against the wall is where you fine tune your skills). You will probably find generally in the counties with less hurling the kids just doing their practise and then thats it. In KK, Tip etc.. they'll be out in the parks in their spare time.
2. Populations (or should I say the number of people playing hurling)
3. Competition (if you are playing good players since you are young you will only improve to a higher standard). Also the club competitions are stronger).
4. Competition from other sports. The focus in most counties is on Football. Only the counties with large populations seem to be able to sustain multiple sports. It's no coincidence that Galway, Cork, Dublin (only recently however) and Tip are strong.
5. Belief, it's alway one that is underestimate. KK, Tip and Cork expect to beat other teams regularly.
6. Organisation, KK, Tip, Cork, Galway and now Dublin have better structures. I believe that this can be attributed to having more and better resources in some of these counties.
7. Total neglect and disregard for hurling. You just have to listen to comments from some of the supporters from counties to understand how their counties have never been and will never be any good at hurling.

Well there are a few potential explanations.

Nick (Wexford) - Posts: 1100 - 16/04/2011 09:47:37    912616

Hurling is an infinitely more skillful game than football and hurling is an infinitely more skilful game than it was 20 years ago. In a football game, a 6 point winning margin could represent a comfortable win - if the same gap in standards existed between hurling teams it could be a 15 point margin. That's why close games are harder to come by in hurling.
The reasons already mentioned are probably all valid - the biggest reason for differences in counties is possibly competitive standards. A Kilkenny 8 year old isn't massively different to a Longford 8 year old, but the Kilkenny child gets to hone his skills at a much higher standard thereafter.

barrnasraide (Carlow) - Posts: 49 - 16/04/2011 10:50:34    912634

It's simple Rosfan. Players from Roscommon can be just as good as children. You might have a very talented 9 year old in Roscommon, and another very talented 9 year old in Kilkenny. The KKid will spend the next 10 years playing against high quality local opposition in school and club competitions, all the while dreaming of wearing the black and amber in Croke Park. The Roscommon kid will spend those 10 years playing against low quality local opposition in school and club competitions (if competitions are available in a football county), all the while knowing that he'll never be part of a good quality inter county team.

It's that simple, and tragic.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 16/04/2011 13:12:43    912699

Getting the right personnel involved at under age club level and in schools is the solution. Easier said than done though. It also requires the support from all club officials and the county board. Dublin's idea of entering combined colleges teams in secondary level competitions has born fruit. Success at an early age gives the incentive for lads to persevere. With hurling there's no quick fix. What I find more exciting about the likes of Wicklow is not what Casey O'Brien is doing with the senior team but how kids in large populated areas like Bray are getting involved in the game now.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1066 - 18/04/2011 10:07:09    913667

Good point maroon. There are loads of kids playing hurling in places like Wicklow and Kildare and that will bear fruit in time. Kildare had a handy enough 21s team the year we won Leinster but not sure how many of them have gone on to play senior. That used to be a huge problem in Dublin where off the top of my head I think only 4/5 of the Dubs minors in 1983 went on to become consistent seniors.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 18/04/2011 12:18:30    913829

gaa struggling to keep hurling alive within the big countys so the smalller counties have no chance

bogstandard (Wexford) - Posts: 799 - 18/04/2011 12:39:17    913859

tj09
County: Cork
Posts: 350

I think Kilkenny's attitude to football can be summed up in 3 words, they dont care!

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 18/04/2011 12:43:28    913868

Tradition!!

thurlesblues (Tipperary) - Posts: 4475 - 18/04/2011 13:11:02    913901

'I was just wondering what are the fundamental differences between the weaker counties and stronger counties? '

Most counties don't care about Hurling, it's as simple as that. In 14 years of School we played Hurling about three times, and we all thought that was three times too many. There's no appetite for it, most young Gaels want to play Gaelic football and nothing else. The smaller counties who can't compete in the All-Ireland football Championship tend to turn to Hurling as a second choice

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 18/04/2011 13:13:22    913905

PomeroyPlunkett:

Knock it off lad don't make us make a show of you again.

Biggest difference between weak and strong counties is the pool of players they can draw from and the investment in under age hurling!!! Simples!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/04/2011 13:28:42    913918