I agree liathroidboy that its no good marching to an office to hand in a letter. They should be marching to the homes of the directors and blocking their gates and causing them a big disruption. Dermot Ahearn did not like the protests outside his home for the few weeks they lasted over the local hospital issue and other issues !! If workers families are effected then management, directors etc should expect the same. Time to get tough and have proper protests !! You are dead right !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 21/01/2011 12:08:44    850951

couldnt agree more cavan- the houses of these lazy communists should also be picketed- if it happened outside my home by my employees i would just get the police to arrest them- failing that i would give the local yobbos a few pound to beat them senseless- these people and their laziness brought it all on themselves- they should be glad to have a job and should be more interested in keeping it than holding the country to ransom.

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 21/01/2011 13:22:52    851034

Liathroid,

I think Dermot thought that too but it didn't work for him. In fact it brought on a bout of illness and left him in no position to continue !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 21/01/2011 14:08:28    851078

delighted that air lingus have the replacement staff in and are not talking to the lazy communists- a great victory

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 22/01/2011 16:46:58    851766

This dispute is an example of exactly what is wrong with this country
Aerlingus want people that will work 850 hours a year - that is 18 hours a week +4 weeks holiday
Aer Lingus want staff to work the hours at which people want and need to fly

Impact are whinging that the hours ar not family friendly and feel that everyone should fly between 9.30 and 4.30 monday to Friday

Lets get real here -these jobs are airborn catering jobs - You get better service in a hotel and the staff there are on Minimum wage and if you want a sandwich or a drink at 4.00 am you can get one.
There are hundreds of thousands of people that would gladly do this work. for a quarter of what these people get paid.

Bully boy union tactics - they are now creating a row just because the company has written to its own employees- what planet do these people live on.
Purely an excuse for union leaders to justify there 200k a year jobs whilst playing roulette with the livelehoods of its members

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/01/2011 15:27:40    852068

Is 11 hours without a meal break ok for you then Omar ?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/01/2011 15:39:26    852075

23/01/2011 15:39:26
Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 6995

852075 Is 11 hours without a meal break ok for you then Omar ?

______________________
My response seems to have got lost

1. No body should work eleven hours without a break
2. The company have confirmed that they are not asking people to do so
3. Asking someone to work 11 hours without a break would not comply with health and safety legislation o employment law
4. The "11 hour no break" story is a union statement -
5. I would not take a view on hearing only the unions PR version.

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/01/2011 17:05:53    852135

Omar D,

Both sides are engaging in mis-information i believe.

The 850 hours you mention are "flying hours" only. They work on the ground too !!
The company want the right to change "duty hours" by 3 hours on any day of duty !!
The company want the right to change by up to 4 hours on the day before a rostered shift !!
The company want the right to reduce the 8 days off per month to 7 days !!

The shift changes are not helpful to staff who have to make child minding arrangements as too short a time can be given !!
There is also a dispute about the length of duties regarding meal breaks as i earlier stated. Both sides dispute this 11 hour till meal break thing !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/01/2011 17:46:07    852171

850 hours equates to 17 hours a week so I would imagine that a bit of work on the ground - ie a quick tidy up of the cabin and show the next batch to their seats
isn't too much to ask for -its not like they are expected to service the engines or wash the planes

The 3 hours variation on shift is only to cover if there is illness etc -makes much more sense than paying a fortune to have a crew on standby.

If they don't cut back on their overpaid cost base they will continue to lose money -
I can never understand why staff strike when the employer is losing money - Would they prefer if the company went out of business ?

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/01/2011 17:54:57    852175

I would imagine that if one of the staff was in Rome and was told that they had to take a 4 p.m. flight home instead of the 1 p.m. flight they expected that staff member might have a problem if they had a child in a creche that closed at 6 p.m. !!

When workers have their rights denied it is neither good for the company or the worker !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/01/2011 18:25:49    852191

23/01/2011 18:25:49
Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 6997

852191 I would imagine that if one of the staff was in Rome and was told that they had to take a 4 p.m. flight home instead of the 1 p.m. flight they expected that staff member might have a problem if they had a child in a creche that closed at 6 p.m. !!

When workers have their rights denied it is neither good for the company or the worker !!
______________

So in that case the need to have a standby crew in Rome on the offchance that a cabin crew member gets sick
No other commercial airline in Europe operates like that at present except Aer Lingus

If the employees are tied to creche times they are in the wrong job - what happens if there is fog or ice or the other thousands of reasons for delayed flights.
If they want to be sure that they have a 9.30 to 4.30 job and still wanted to work in airports they should have applied for a job in Aer- Rianta -

People are forgetting that we are no longer on the 1960's when people used to put on a shirt and tie if they were going to an airport - Air travel is a fraction of the cost it was 50 years ago and thats progress - The flipside of this is that the people who hand out sandwiches and collect the used paper cups need to realise that this is what they do - and anyone can do it and would do it for a tenner an hour

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/01/2011 19:09:29    852228

If employees anywhere are tied to creche times then are they all in the wrong jobs Omar ? You are very harsh on workers, especially females, and your love of company and company policy puts you down as harsh. Why do you always come up with the argument that there are many other people who would do the work for less ? If you were to carry that argument into every walk of life you would only employ the cheapest workers for any job and discriminate against women with young children !! You must think that those workers in Aer Lingus are fighting for the sake of it. I am sure that many of them have mortgages and young families and don't want to be in dispute, so should they just leave and seek alternative employment which is not there. The company is playing on the fact that there is a recession and no alternative jobs for these workers so should the workers just roll over and take anything thats thrown at them. They have a right to strike if they believe they are not being treated fairly !! They are exercising that right !! We are not living in 1960's Russia either !!

There is a happy medium and it must be fair to both parties, not just the company !!
You are beginning to sound just like liathroid !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/01/2011 19:53:22    852265

Slasher

Its important to note that it was you that equated lack of Flexibility and need to collect children to Female workers not me. I fail to see where gender is the issue
I often work 70 hours + a week in my job - Last week I worked over 80 including tuesday where I worked 8.00 am to 2.00 am . There are women that do the same and they get well paid for it. Their husbands or in laws collect their children where required but if you can't be available to do the hours well then you don;t get the money.

Whether its men or women if your work involves flying halfway around the world at the mercy of weather, technical faults etc well then you need to be flexible and your wages will reflect this -These people are on a lot more than €7.45 an hour but this work is no harder than serving fries in a burger bar.

Every job has an occaision where you need to put in a few extra hours - these things often happen at the last moment. Those that can put their shoulder to the wheel will get rewarded through pay, recognition or promotion - clockwatchers will not - The airline has been mainly privatised and it has to compete in the real world - its time people copped on to this.
As regards people doing the job for less well if they are willing to work and the people in the jobs are not willing to work or insisting on fixed hours in a 24 hour 365 day industry well then they have lost the plot.Typical union stragegy to pretend unskilled jobs are "proffessional"

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/01/2011 20:28:21    852292

Omar,

Air hostesses are professional and there is more to their job than pouring tea as i imagine you well know. Regardless of anyones job they are entitled to be treated with respect. It is respectful that if there is a dispute for both parties to sit down and talk it out. It is a two way street. The bosses in this company are refusing to do this and are moving the goalposts by changing rosters without consultation according to what i have read !!

it is no coincidence that this company is again in the news. The Union cannot always be at fault now can it ?

Of course there are times when people have to put their shoulders to the wheel and i am sure many of the workers in this company do this but as i said previously there has to be give and take on both sides.

With regard to your opinion that these are jobs are "no harder than serving fries in a burger bar" i think you are being very unfair, and regardless of what your own job entails or how important it makes you feel, you should not make little of someone else's position in life. A cheap shot !! I bet if you were ever on a plane in an emergency situation you would appreciate the work of these people and the skill involved.

No matter what position we hold in life a true testament of that position is how we treat others. Respect is rewarded by respect. Thank God i don't work for you or Aer Lingus !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/01/2011 21:05:16    852319

Each response is getting longer and longer. I wonder who is going to reach the 4000 character limit first?

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 23/01/2011 21:46:36    852349

23/01/2011 21:05:16
Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 7002

852319 Omar,

Air hostesses are professional and there is more to their job than pouring tea as i imagine you well know.

____________
To be honest I don't "well know"- They serve tea - show people to their seat and have to have knowledge of health and safety and know where the exits are
- Similar to say an usher in a cinema.

As regards respect and value of jobs - You are twisting the argument
I have respect for anyone that does an honest days work - if thats a €8 an hour job or €800 an hour good luck to them
but my point is anyone who does a days work or wants to do a days work - these people don;t want to work.
Over the last ten years there have been dozens of industrial disputes at Aer Lingus - Just because strike action is high impact the union jump at any chance to flex their muscles, whilst their employer has lost quarter of a billion euro since 2008 because of its union driven cost base
The company spends 95% of its income on operating costs - this is before they buy or lease aircraft - Ryanairs cost ratio is 75%.

I don't believe its practical to keep paying high wages for 15 hour weeks. Of course my argument is from the company's perspective - Is your argument that wages should exceed income ? - same as our Public Service system . You can't do this in a privatised company - Thats not an opinion its an economic fact.
There are three outcomes
1. Keep cost base as is and company closes
2. Employees face reality
3. Move head office to a lower cost country

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 24/01/2011 09:17:02    852370

Omar,

OR :-

Only employ single people !!
Robots who obey every command !!
People who will not notice discrimination !!
Who do not eat !!

I had a neighbour once who was a big company man. One week while in London working for the company his wife took ill. He decided that he would not come home immediately but wait till the weekend because he was on very important business. His wife died. His family didn't really ever forgive him. He still lives in a big house but on his own and is retired and fairly wealthy. Nobody ever comes near him because he is a miserable old git !!

The company is still making loads of money ....... without him !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 24/01/2011 13:15:02    852558

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 7004

852558 Omar,

OR :-

Only employ single people !!
Robots who obey every command !!
People who will not notice discrimination !!
Who do not eat !!
-----------------------------------
Welcome to Ryanair!

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 24/01/2011 14:04:50    852585

24/01/2011 13:15:02
Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 7005

852558 Omar,

OR :-

Only employ single people !!
Robots who obey every command !!
People who will not notice discrimination !!
Who do not eat !!

I had a neighbour once who was a big company man. One week while in London working for the company his wife took ill. He decided that he would not come home immediately but wait till the weekend because he was on very important business. His wife died. His family didn't really ever forgive him. He still lives in a big house but on his own and is retired and fairly wealthy. Nobody ever comes near him because he is a miserable old git !!

The company is still making loads of money ....... without him !!
_____________

Struggling with relvance of the answer - Question was reasonably straightforward - I'll even remove one of the options given that it is a "national carrier"

Aer Lingus have lost €250,000,000 in the last two years
This is because its operating costs are too high
Do you propose they should cut costs or go bankrupt ?

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 24/01/2011 14:25:45    852611

Maybe they are flying to destinations that are not paying !!
Maybe they would get more out of their workers if they treated them fairly !!
Maybe if they actually sat down with staff they might come to arrangements that would suit both sides where people with childcare issues could do the shorter flights !!
Maybe they would make more money if they explored the above !!

I really don't know how they are losing money !!
Maybe they have too many employed and are just using this issue to get rid of them by the back door !!
Maybe they should have rented out the vacant hangars to Ryanair !!
Maybe they have the wrong people in management positions who are only thinking of themselves, promotion, company, profits etc !!

I don't really know but one thing for certain is that if you abuse staff you do not deserve to make money !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 24/01/2011 14:47:32    852627