Maybe i am now but when i joined i was a good bit behind and was for many many years of my 32 served in my Dept !! !!

Would someone in the the private sector not have been in the same boat as you taken that time frame to work up to the wage they now have, even if in your case the pay in the private sector is higher.... I just think when you take in job security pensions etc. pay in the private sector should be higher than the public sector.

I again that your personal case into consideration and say that you are in the minority and maybe it's something you should be bringing up with your union rep if in regards look at pay withing the public sector unless you have done this already, by the sounds of it benchmarking didn't do much for you in regards the rest of the public sector and it should be made known to your union rep?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 01/03/2011 18:18:25    879235

Again a lot posted Hag.

If Jim O Leary had a case he should have stayed and made it and not bolted in a sulk.

The only proof that I have with regards to the deliberations being kept secret are that it was asserted during a debate on Matt Coopers programme and was not contradicted by the private sector representative.

In relation to your point about pensions, not all private sector employees were considered during the exercise. This was made clear prior to the benchmarking exercise taking place.

As for being institutionalised it is unfair to make assertions about a three hundred thousand strong workforce based on one experience. That assertion is another one that is bandied about by certain people who have a platform to articulate their views. When callenged it's an assertion that doesn't stand up.I wouldn't generalise about the private sector workforce based on the bad experiences I have had. My experience of the private sector is generally positive.

In relation to benchmarking the average increase was 8%. Some got as little as 4% and some got as much as 13%. The average public servant has seen a reduction of 17% in their net income. The pay rises have been rescinded. It was an exercise that took six years to complete from it's initiation to the final payment in 2006. The total increase to the exchequer was 1.1 billion euro. Pay reductions began for the public service began in January 2009. Whether it was done correctly is a matter for debate. It is now however a dead issue. The fact that average pay is higher in the public sector is due to the fact that there is a far higher concentration of professionals in the public sector. As to the proper utilisation of graduate skills in the public sector I would venture to say that given the complete non performance of many of our graduates in the finance, banking accounting and legal professions that graduate utilisation and performance might be a more pressing issue in the private sector.

Job security for public servants was not an issue in the boom times. Public servants were told and rightly so when they were earning considerably less than their private sector counterparts that they had made a lifestyle choice. That was true. It still is today.

Finally like yourself I am enjoying the exchange of views.

Finally the issue of security becomes

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 01/03/2011 18:29:26    879245

If Jim O Leary had a case he should have stayed and made it and not bolted in a sulk.

If you weren't being listen to and the sham benchmarking was going to be associated with his name why should he stay there.

As for being institutionalised it is unfair to make assertions about a three hundred thousand strong workforce based on one experience.
I am not saying that on behalf of one expireance that term is mentioned in studies and also by public sector employee's who don't like their jobs but see it as a job for life and just get on with the same day to day work..... do you agree that the bureaucracy of the public sector limits the effect such a well educated work force can impact and that they are infact beaten down by the system..... in the private sector the most innovative and well educated companies have the flatest organisational structure possible thus utilies employees skills properly.

Where are you getting you value of 8% from should that not include the yearly increases also.... the figure show that it is on average a hell of a lot more than 8%. Are you saying that oublic sectors nett wage is 9% less than before benchmarking now?

Whether it was done correctly is a matter for debate.
I don't think that this is up for debate what so ever I study benchmarking and that was not benchmarking.

As to the proper utilisation of graduate skills in the public sector I would venture to say that given the complete non performance of many of our graduates in the finance, banking accounting and legal professions that graduate utilisation and performance might be a more pressing issue in the private sector.

I don't think this was an issue with graduates at all they were doing as their were directed by management in banks etc. as far as their employers were concerned they were proforming brilliantly. The blame lies with the top managers and regulation from the banking regulators who had representitives from the public sector and also one who was involved with unions and of course the government.

Job security for public servants was not an issue in the boom times.
Of course it wasn't in a short time frame like that as the jobs market is fuled by supply and demand, everyone goes through a few recessions in their life and joblosses and recessions is how the private sector ultimately regulates the pay so job security is an issue there how can you thus "benchmark" the public sector against this when it dose not operate in the same way.... many employee's see one of the major perks of the public sector as a job for life.

It's the same in my expireance with contracting and permanant job in the private sector..... contract workers can earn up to and above 20% more why because they do not have the security and also employers prsi pension perks etc. I have worked as a contractor and in a permanant positions in the past and took the pay cut because i understood I was getting a bit more security and taking less of a risk..... ultimately unfortunately that's not the way it worked out for me, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 01/03/2011 19:07:15    879285

The fact that average pay is higher in the public sector is due to the fact that there is a far higher concentration of professionals in the public sector.

I am not taking in gereral about average pay across the public sector I'm talking about comparable jobs!! They public sector on average in this context are still paid higher.

An ersi report in 2003 outlined this which Impact rejected but i think another union accepted.... also if you look at the CSO reports from 2009 and 2010 you'll see that the cuts in wages in the public sector are still short of the cuts in wages in the private sector and thst not even taking into account the 300,000 that had to take a 100% pay cut i.e lost their job!!! Job security is very valuable and benchmarking did not effectly outline how valuable it is one of the countless flaws in benchmarking.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 01/03/2011 19:28:25    879305

Hag loads to consider again.

Point one No. He should have stayed.

Point two. No I do not agree. Your assertion is typical of the stereotypical portrayal of public servants. I have worked as a public servant in a professional capacity for twenty six years. The people I work with at present and the people I have worked with in the past are now and were in the past vibrant, intelligent and innovative people who did work and who continue to work well.

Point three. You need to study benchmarking again. The average increase awarded was eight per cent. Some such as the teachers were awarded more. Some such as the Gardai were awarded less. I am not saying that the average public sector wage is 9% less than what it was before benchmarking. Any additional payments were awarded under different partnership agreements. The premise of benchmarking was to link the various groups within the public sector with their equivalent and "comparable" professions in the private sector. Once that was done submissions were made by these groups which were then adjudicated on by the commission which was made up of both private and public sector representatives under the stewardship of an independent chairman.
I too believed benchmarking was flawed because the concept of declared income as opposed to actual income in the private sector was never considered. Robbie Kelleher admitted publicly that public v private comparative income studies are next nigh to useless because it is impossible to accurately assess what is earned in the private sector.

Point Four. You are ignoring the fact that there was under performance and incompetence at many levels in the relevant professions I outlined to you. A lot of it was willful negligence. Whether it was required by management or not is irrelevant. Doing wrong cannot be right. There was widespread sale of financial products to elderly people who had no hope of living long enough to avail of these products. This was demanded by management. Was it right ? And that Hag was the tip of the iceberg

Point Five Like I said previously it was and remains a lifestyle choice that everybody could have made. You make your choices and live with them. That is why security of position is not considered as a value added option.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 01/03/2011 21:00:24    879364

HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 4459

879305 The fact that average pay is higher in the public sector is due to the fact that there is a far higher concentration of professionals in the public sector.

I am not taking in gereral about average pay across the public sector I'm talking about comparable jobs!! They public sector on average in this context are still paid higher.

An ersi report in 2003 outlined this which Impact rejected but i think another union accepted.... also if you look at the CSO reports from 2009 and 2010 you'll see that the cuts in wages in the public sector are still short of the cuts in wages in the private sector and thst not even taking into account the 300,000 that had to take a 100% pay cut i.e lost their job!!! Job security is very valuable and benchmarking did not effectly outline how valuable it is one of the countless flaws in benchmarking

How can you permnaently evaluate something Hag, the value of which, according to you fluctuates considerably according to the prevailing circumstances?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 01/03/2011 21:04:09    879366

Hag

Its a fair point that Benchmarking did not adequately value job security - however the issue is that at the time job security was worth a lot less than it is today.
It maybe argued that Benchmarking correctly valued the impact of job security in terms of its value at the time but did not allow for the fact that this value would fluctuate.

The other point that was reflected in benchmarking was the impact of a defined benefit pension scheme. And to be fair public servants have taken a post benchmarking kicking in terms of the levy - but again the value of this type of pension has increased - If you had a contrib pension fund you would have lost 40% of its value between 2007 and March 2009 however if you had a DB scheme it would have increased in value by circa 5%. For somebody who had 30 years of service and was earning €50k a year that a difference of over €250,000

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 01/03/2011 21:18:53    879381

"past vibrant, intelligent and innovative people who did work and who continue to work well"
Do you mind me asking what department you work in..... also has work practises change much in that time frame, also how do you measure the innovation you may be a bit biased as you work there.

"You need to study benchmarking again."
What your take on benchmarking then mine is benchmarking should increase efficency and quality by using best practise within the industry thus hoping reduce cost.
What was attempted was a subset of benchmarking know as H.R. benchmarking by the main part of that is Proformance benchmarking then payment apprasial can then be done. Where was the proformance benchmarking, also it's not feasible to benchmark private against public sector as they are different animals private sector is driven by the market and supply and demand public sector is driven by offering the public services which they need they are polar opposites... benchmarking should have been done aginst public sector in other counties adopting best practise, doing proformanace benchmarking and then pay appraisal looking at inflation and the cost of living compared to other counties.
What method do you think should have been done I'd like to know seen as i need to study it more??

here a report on how proformance benchmarking was carried out in a part of the u.k public sector note they pay was hardly mentioned at all.
https://mioga.minefi.gouv.fr/DB/public/controlegestion/doc/3Analyse%20comparative/2%20Application%20du%20benchmarking/Perf_bench_in_public_sector_UK.pdf

Also on the benchmarking report o'leary resigned after the first benchmarking report and when on the outline a study done i think with ucg and davy stockbrokers in which he outlined that pay increase where not needed in regards benchmarking. Do you think on those ground he was right to resign and also I think you'll find that the first benchmarking report was never published why was that. The 2nd benchmarking report used the unions to a greater degree to help the government drive their agenda of raiseing wages anyways in my view for political gain remember there was a general election in 2002 in which finna fail managed to increase their popularity.

"You are ignoring the fact that there was under performance and incompetence at many levels in the relevant professions I outlined to you"
I am not i said that yes people where doing the wrong things especially in the banking sector but in the eyes of their employers they were exceeding proformance standards given to them and in the most parts where staying within legal boundaries it was the regulation and law makers that were to blame in not regulation the industries properly morals don't often happen in business it needs to be controled and if it's not that is what happens.

"I too believed benchmarking was flawed because the concept of declared income as opposed to actual income in the private sector was never considered"
So public sector workers had no additional income outside their work, none had investments stocks and additional property and land??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/03/2011 13:06:44    879604

continued:

"That is why security of position is not considered as a value added option. "
I think you are way off the ball on that public sector workers on this forum hve sited this as one of the main reason they work in the public sector.... right just say that in the morning the wage cuts were reveresed for the public sector with the clause that ye were not garanteed a job for life and also the pension was cut what would you say to that??

You never replyed to the point about public sector bureaucracy and how it limits workers in the public sector again public sector workers on this forum have also said it is a problem as they have trouble getting their view throught to top management. I agree the public sector has more graduates and better educated in general so should there be a flatter organisational structure then where they make decisions it seems decisions are made at a higher level which is detaccted for the lowere level workers. This can happen in private sector companies too but in the last 20 years it has been companies with a flatter structure and have been the most innovative and successful!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/03/2011 13:07:03    879607

If you had a contrib pension fund you would have lost 40% of its value between 2007 and March 2009 however if you had a DB scheme it would have increased in value by circa 5%. For somebody who had 30 years of service and was earning €50k a year that a difference of over €250,000

That would be defined as risk thus you can make or loose money!! The higher the risk potentially the higher the rewards but also potentially the higher the lose. I would think the the loss of 40% would be market driven by investments??

A garenteed pension is worth it's weight in gold and the fact that private sector have lower pension contributions they tend to play the markets a bit more to seek a higher return, the public sector pension fund was and is planned to be used in this way in the future with fine gael investment bank policy the difference is that publiuc sector workers will still be garenteed their pension so it takes the risk out of it for them.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/03/2011 13:14:09    879615

at least Dick Turpin had the deceny to waer a mask- but alas the communists will just steal and steal from the tax payer as long as they are let away with it- we can concluse that these communists have no shame and are beyond remorse for their actions- that god they are going to be brought to task especially in the public service and we will laugh in theior faces as they rot

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 02/03/2011 13:50:00    879656

lets just bench mark them all again- fair is fair isnt it- no dount the unions and public serve themselves would think this is a good idea no doubt? of is something only fair if they get more money. thank god the country has copped on to these people and their cummupance is coming as soon as the croke park agreement is tore up. wages have stayed the same for a long time now yet no improvements in productivity. given the choice i would fire every public servant as being incompetent and rehire for every job - about 5 % would keep their jobs i reckon

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 02/03/2011 14:12:38    879677

No change again there ballboy bob wonce again you add nothing to the discussion..... this funny for a supposely educated man you come up with the same thing all the time.

Fire em all and take them back at less, I think you would see the country grind to a halt and sure don't you need services from the public sector to run your business's or are you forgetting that??

I would like to see things done properly but what you propose is just rediculas and even worst than the sham benchmarking but in fairness we've come to expect that from you now.

Also you like to brand the word communists around a lot well you sir in your views are no more than a brand of facism!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/03/2011 14:46:50    879725

Greengrass:

One last thing I wise to point out.

"I too believed benchmarking was flawed because the concept of declared income as opposed to actual income in the private sector was never considered. Robbie Kelleher admitted publicly that public v private comparative income studies are next nigh to useless because it is impossible to accurately assess what is earned in the private sector.

Well here a report for Davy stockbrokers dated in 2009 (o'leary's crowd) that states that yes the likes of bonuses are higher in the private sector but says that the public sector has caught up in that regard also brakes down the difference between job equilivants and educated equilivants pay wise.

http://www.davy.ie/content/pubarticles/economy20090710.pdf

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/03/2011 16:52:37    879915

It was in reference to that particular report Hag that Robbie Kelleher when challenged on Matt Cooper with regards to the value of reports like this said that their value was negligible because the black economy and what existed in it was impossible to quantify. I'll get back to you on the other points you raise later. I have to help the children with their homework now. It's all go around here !!

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 02/03/2011 19:04:45    880056

i base everyone the principle that they should only hold their job if there is a realistic change right nowe today that is they reapplied for the same job would they get it- im afraid our entire public servethemselves would be out on their *****. i think the communists on here have some weird thinking that it wrong to tell them they are useless and worthless and as such fire them- i think that is actually doing them a favour as they know how to improve in future. if we dont fire the public servants we should at least get real with them- 50% pay cut overnight and a 50% rise in output demanded - offer the minimum leagal requirement for redundance and refuse to acknowledege the unions even exist

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 03/03/2011 11:21:11    880420

Since your the expert Ballboy bob, how would you propose to measure proformance??

Care not to show yourself up again now mind!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 03/03/2011 14:06:45    880569

liathroidboy
County: Mayo
Posts: 2036

879656 at least Dick Turpin had the deceny to waer a mask- but alas the communists will just steal and steal from the tax payer as long as they are let away with it- we can concluse that these communists have no shame and are beyond remorse for their actions- that god they are going to be brought to task especially in the public service and we will laugh in theior faces as they rot

________

Coming from a self procalimed tax fraud

Derry_ledd (Derry) - Posts: 2093 - 03/03/2011 14:35:13    880588

Coming from a self procalimed tax fraud

He he very good but you have to remember that was a gift to his wife and children..... kinda a bit like father ted "that money was only resting in my bank account"

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 03/03/2011 14:51:56    880600

productivity- the amount of output at a certain level- please dont go off on one now as you tend to i.e a teacher should be measured on the grades of students, an academic on research publication quality, a nurse on how many bed they change etc. a cop on how many donuts they eat and all administrative staff on a quota system eg they must do x amount of inputs in a certain amount of time-if im paying for it i want output

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 03/03/2011 18:22:06    880837