Breffni39:

I take it you're the type that'd turn down a payrise hag?

I was contracting before i got a permanent job and my wages were inflated by supply and demand and I admit i was overpaid..... I took a permanent job for some job security which was about 15% cut in wages, I then took another pay cut when the recession hit and took unpaid leave as requested, before i was made redundant I offered to take another pay cut to save my job but couldn't be saved..... Recently i had a part-time job (to fund college) which I also lost lately as the the business was closed down so don't talk to me about taking pay cuts.

Also I am not beating ye with the stick I am beating the unions and the last government with the stick and just because some pay increased have been checked a small bit dosen't make it all right and dosen't validate the sham that was benchmarking!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 15:27:08    878135

Hag you are twisting this now. I have taken and accepted pay cuts as well and never said anything about you taking them. YOu don't accept Bench-marking and seem to be in denial about the pay cuts we have taken simply to keep making this point about benchmarking

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12370 - 28/02/2011 15:43:51    878167

Breffni39:

No I'm not but you seem to be in denial about the sham benchmarking was...... are you earing less now than what you were before benchmarking and the subsequent pay cuts?? outside of the money taken to bail out the banks their is still a 20 billion short fall in spending i.e we spend 20 billion more than we take in!! McCreevy pumped 20 billion into the public sector in 3 years the majority in pay raises and increased headcount much of that 20 billion increses has continued to be paid year on year since then also there has been more money pumped in after him. What would these additional cost have added up to over 10/15 years??? enough to get us out of this hole and if the banks were regulated properly ireland wouldn't have been hit as hard. Also their would have been money there for spend on infrustructure and even stimulus packages!!

I know you'll bring taxation into this arguement everyone gets taxed (I don't agree with the tax rates as they are either) although public sector pensions have gotten a hit in taxation but nothing like the increses received in pensions in the 10/15 years.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 16:03:34    878201

Breffni39:

p.s what were public sector pensions "benchmarked" against??? As the private sector employees contribute to a pension throught money taken out of their wages and these contributions are added to by an employer contribution...... is that how public sector pensions work??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 16:06:17    878204

H & C,

We all pay towards our Public Sector pensions !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/02/2011 16:50:50    878268

Slasher:

Do ye contribute as much as a private sector worker to get the same sort of a pension??? for arguement sake a private sector worker on the same wages??

It's a state pension right?? Ye make additional contributions.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 17:01:02    878291

How am i in denial about benchmarking being a sham? Mistakes have been made everywhere. Like I have said I have taken and accepted paycuts. You are twisting this to suit your argument all the time.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12370 - 28/02/2011 17:02:21    878293

I pay what they ask !! Its deducted at source !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/02/2011 17:03:06    878296

Breffni:

To say the public sector accepted the pay cuts is fairly off the ball isn't it, was their not strikes work to rule etc. also the is also opposition to reform in the public sector at the moment against part of the the croke park agreement

Slasher:
granted yes you do but the pension you get will be a lot bigger than what you would have got in the private sector with even higher contributions, little article on it
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015769.shtml

Also I would be right in saying that pensions were not part of "benchmarking" right??? Why was it not included?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 17:56:45    878403

Hag you have contributed a huge amount to these pages today. Primarily you have discussed public sector pay and conditions. You discuss benchmarking. Jim O Leary to put it bluntly threw his toys out of the pram when he didn't get his way on The Benchmarking Comission. That's not the way for anyone to make a contribution when engaged in carrying out public responsibilities.

Benchmarking is a dead issue. The money has been returned and a lot more besides. Public Servants have been hit very very hard in all of this with more to come.
You ask why were pension contributions not considered in the first benchmarking exercise. I don't know. The reason I don't know is that the private sector representatives requested that all deliberations should be kept secret. Public servant representatives acquiesced in this. Pension contributions were taken in to consideration in the second exercise.
You state that the amount paid out in pay rises to the public servants would contribute to the correction now underway. That is the same as saying if there had been no pay rises in the private sector at this time then we would be competitive. Possibly true but wholly unrealistic.
You also ask have public servants not been accorded positive publicity in the print media. The answer is very very little. The truth is that our print media in particular have a poisonous antipathy towards the public sector as those oft used and utterly self serving and ignorant phrases "real world" and "non productive sector of the economy "would indicate.

You raise too many issues to deal with. However I can assure you that our public servants are far from being the ne'er do well, lazy inefficient leeches they are portrayed as being. Yes there are areas public servants can improve on. No organisation is perfect. Public servants are in general hard working, responsible people who do their work to the best of their ability. Their work is also subject to far more public scrutiny than private sector workers.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 28/02/2011 20:26:16    878566

Hag & Cheese,

When i joined the Public Sector the jobs were advertised and there for all to apply !!
The pay was by no means great and i left a better paid job in London to take up my new career!! Many wouldn't do the job for the money at the time !!
I joined it for the security and for the pension and worked my way into the job i wanted and i did it well with only 2 days sick (for a minor operation) in 32 years !!
I work the hours required, sometimes changing my shift (voluntary) to suit the children i work with !! It also pleases management and saves cost !!
I am entitled, i feel, to the conditions i signed up for !! I paid what i was asked to pay for my pension !!
Pensions were cut 4% in the last budget and wages over the past two years were cut one way or another by 14% to 17% !! Mileage and Subsistance cut 25% !!
I do not apologize to anyone for doing my job well and being entitled to what i signed on for !! My job was there and advertised for everyone to apply !!
As i stated before, i was asked on several occasions years ago to leave my job and take up employment in the Private Sector at far higher pay, my pay was scoffed at then by these people !!
I stayed for the security but now i feel i am being pilloried for making an astute decision !!
I owe nobody anything, least of all an apology !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/02/2011 20:41:04    878584

HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 4447

878403 Breffni:

To say the public sector accepted the pay cuts is fairly off the ball isn't it,

Yeah, it was the main factor in me not saying it.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12370 - 01/03/2011 10:16:40    878734

cavan your sense of entitlement as you put it is definately not more important than the fact the a few people are working in the private sector to pay for your security and sense of entitlement which they cant afford to do and the government could use that money alot better- but as a civil serveyourself youare consumed with your own greed over all else. as soon as croke park is ripped up the better and it wont be long, the greed of the public serve themselves is going to come back to haunt you as the irish people simply will not pay for your greed and zero productivity anymore- i cant wait for the change. MR Kenny do you job and crush the unions

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 01/03/2011 10:16:41    878735

Good man liathroid. Now would you like to tell us what you do in as honest a fashion as i did ?
I await with interest !! Honesty though !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/03/2011 10:24:40    878747

i make money cavan as the rate wher supply meets demand -that what i do- could you say the same? NO thats my point i have worked for what i have ands earned it on the open markets - you just sit back and hold a country to ransom at every opportunity as you know you are overpaid and underworked

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 01/03/2011 10:39:45    878763

Well you did not disappoint me at all with your arrogance and sense of self-worth which is a total sham and many posters have seen through your sham !! I am still of the opinion that you are a total bluffer, probably on the dole and sponging from hard working taxpayers like me. I would say you never held a job and never wanted to and you do a dis-service to people who genuinely want to work and be independent !! Shame on you !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/03/2011 10:55:58    878785

Thats it slasher, don't save the rod!!!

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12370 - 01/03/2011 11:00:37    878789

cavan at least we can agree the those on the dole are spungers. thank god FG are going to tackle this- personally i would cut dole completely and off anyone on the dole a one way ticket to anywhere they want in the world - if they refuse it they get nothing-

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 01/03/2011 11:21:58    878809

liathroidboy:
Pipe down will you you've been proven as a spoofer time after time

Breffni39:
To say the public sector accepted the pay cuts is fairly off the ball isn't it,
Yeah, it was the main factor in me not saying it.
Are you contradiction yourself then??

slasher and Greengrass:
I'm in no way having a go at ye and am enjoying the debate least ye post something revelent. Sorry I'm late getting back start of ragg week here and even though I'm a "mature" student I can still teach these youngins a thing or two.... but that my ragg week over now 1 night is enough at my age.

Greengrass:
Jim O Leary to put it bluntly threw his toys out of the pram when he didn't get his way on The Benchmarking Comission.
Would he be throwing his toys of of the pram when in fact they way benchmarking was being done was the way he wanted it done i.e. the proper way.

The reason I don't know is that the private sector representatives requested that all deliberations should be kept secret. I find it very hard to believe could you give a bit of proof on that. From what i understand the benchmarking body in the 2nd report took it at a figure of 12% of salary in the private in doing this they assumed everyone in the private sector has a pension..... they didn't bother consider over a million people in the private sector that do not have a pension!!

Also you say that the money has been returned I do not agree there how much was dished out by McCreey and co and how much extra expenditure per year has it cost since then also the cuts in the last year do not that it back to what it was before benchmarking..... My major issue is not the money it that benchmarking was not done properly benchmarking is all about adopting best practise which was not done if the waste within the public sector was cut out then maybe increase wages starting with front line services which in reality came out the worst pay increase in the public sector.

However I can assure you that our public servants are far from being the ne'er do well, lazy inefficient leeches they are portrayed as being.
I never said that and if you had a read of the debates myself and slasher had in the past you'd see that..... you quite correctly point out that there is more graduates in the public sector but they do not use the potential of these graduates, you tend to get institutionalised there. I have a few months work in a public sector department during the summer and could get over how much duplication was done most of it paper based. I brought it up one day saying that it could be done easier and more efficently using a simple database, and got the response we prefer it this way it's always been the way we've done. I'm currently doing a masters and had the oppertunity of doing it within a public sector department but to be honest I did my own little cost benefit analysis and looked at how i would be supported in the changes i would propose to make, for that reason i choose to do it in the private sector as i was assured i would get management support and be easier to implement and thus lead to a better masters for me.

Slasher:
I good time for you and from what you have told me you have been one of the positions that has not fairer well out of benchmarking maybe because you are front line??
I stayed for the security but now i feel i am being pilloried for making an astute decision !!
I don't see how I pillorising you in fairness your situation seems to be in the minority that data show that across the public sector that is not the case, but you mention job security well how valuable is that and that should be reflected in wages aswell..... yet wages in the public sector on average are still higher than their private sector comparables..... granted you say you case is different by I would again put forward that you are in the minority when you look across the public sector

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 01/03/2011 17:10:53    879143

Hag & CHeese,

Maybe i am now but when i joined i was a good bit behind and was for many many years of my 32 served in my Dept !! !!
Not getting at you at all because you always debate with what you consider to be relevant facts !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/03/2011 18:07:26    879224