the hse is basically a group of people where one digs a hole the other fills it in and the cycle starts again- half of they are not needed at all- cut cut cut please MR Kenny

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 25/02/2011 16:22:23    876418

liathroidboy:

Your post was noted, Processed and Disgarded.

Anyone what to put a bit of intelligent input unlike ballboy bob!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/02/2011 16:26:42    876424

Hag & Cheese,

I agree and posted on this also before, like trying to get something approved or sanctioned with the immense paper trail !! Not going to go into all that again !!
I can only speak for my own area and say that all benchmarking has been completed though some is to the detriment of the service and am waiting to get approval to go back and fix the problem !! Some of the new stuff was brought in by outsiders and now they can see that its not working so we are fixing the problem. Consultation at the start would have helped !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 25/02/2011 16:41:13    876433

"all benchmarking has been completed though some is to the detriment of the service"

Unions have a lot to do with this and hopefully people in the public sector we start to see that uions don't look after their best interests, I no problem with the right people getting raised wages threw "Benchmarking" but the majority got then and now they should be "benchmarked" down.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 25/02/2011 16:44:36    876438

HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 4425

876102 "The same thing is done to public servants by those paragons of accuracy and accountability our print media in order to spread inaccuracies about our public servants."

Ok here we go again, the public sector workers earn more on average that their private sector equilivants did before "benchmarking" and even more after benchmarking. I know slasher will come back with he could be earning more in the same job in the private sector but it done on average.

Look at the facts between 2001 and 2006 salaries went up on average 59% payroll went up 18% and pensions 81%, also the biggest gap between private sector and public sector equilivants wage wise is on the lower level also i've read that the % of manager in the public sector is lower than that of the private sector.

Have a read of Public-Private Wage Differentials in Ireland, G.Boyle, R.McElligott and J.O'Leary, that will tell you all but I suppose that's just propaganda. Also have a read of the 283 page (I think) benchmarking report it's rediculas..... Benchmarking is about adopting best practise thus becomming more efficient cutting costs and saving money, yet the "benchmarking" done only dealth with pay and nothing else which didn't save money.

Think about 272 pages of the report are about pay the rest is a cover pages, table of contents etc.


Which sector has the higher concentration of graduates and which sector has the highest concentration of people working in a professional capacity Hag ? The answer is the public sector. Graduates and professionals earn more than non graduates. Bencmarking is a dead issue. That money has been deducted and plenty more on top of it.
I'm not going to get involved in a public v private argument because it's been done to death already. What turns my stomach is the disparaging attitude by some people in the private sector towards people in the public sector. These ridiculous terms such as "non productive sector" and "real world" are entirely disparaging and self serving. They are also wrong. I presume the J O Leary you're referring to is the same Jim O Leary who resigned from the Benchmarking Comission. Finally Hag if you don't believe that our print media has a poisonous antipathy towards public servants read The Independent and The Sunday Independent.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 25/02/2011 21:11:20    876654

24/02/2011 17:34:32
Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 1155


You're right Slasher. It's the lazy, inaccurate way to do it. The same thing is done to public servants by those paragons of accuracy and accountability our print media in order to spread inaccuracies about our public servants.

___________
Total salary divided by number of employees = Average Salary
That is the method used in their statutory accounts.

Perhaps you could advise what method you would use to work out an average ?
Im assuming the public sector have a different method - and note I used the word average and Slasher asked me where did I get the Average .

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 25/02/2011 21:39:16    876677

Your point is well made rua and accepted.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 25/02/2011 21:47:27    876690

25/02/2011 21:47:27
Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 1156

876690 Your point is well made rua and accepted.

________________
Fair enough - Though my total salary cost incls restructuring which would have been debateable !

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 26/02/2011 10:39:39    876751

Ruanua,

I would do it by grade or rank within the job !!
Management - overall pay divided by the amount of managers !! Same for middle management !!
Frontline P.S. -- overall pay divided by numbers of nurses, firemen, gardai of lower rank etc !!

It would give a clearer picture and one which would dispel the myths held by many of the public !!

Take a senior manager in H.S.E. at 140k, a middle/junior manager at 70k and a nurse on the frontline at 40k. Its a bit rich to add the three wages and then divide by 3 and assume (as many members of our society think) that the nurse is earning in the region of 80k a year !!
Thats the way people like liathroidboy in their ignorance see it imo !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 26/02/2011 12:05:26    876778

Hag & Cheese,

I composed a long reply to your last post but either the gremlins or the Admin didn't like what was said and refused to post it !!
Most of it actually agreed with what you said !!
Benchmarking is actually a good thing if it is left to the people in the know to decide what has to be done to improve the service. Everyone wants to work efficiently and to see their service being successful. I don't know anyone who would prefer to see it in disarray. Cutting dead-waste administrators for one as there are so many needless layers. One administrator less on 120 k could make way for 3 badly needed nurses, firemen, gardai etc !! What happened in many cases is that outsider agents were sent in to make cuts willy-nilly for the sake of saving money and so-called efficiency changes which backfired and will cost more being fixed when it could have been done under consultation and with agreement. Unions were often to blame but not always !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 26/02/2011 12:25:43    876793

26/02/2011 12:05:26
Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 7366

876778 Ruanua,

I would do it by grade or rank within the job !!
Management - overall pay divided by the amount of managers !! Same for middle management !!
Frontline P.S. -- overall pay divided by numbers of nurses, firemen, gardai of lower rank etc !!

It would give a clearer picture and one which would dispel the myths held by many of the public !!

Take a senior manager in H.S.E. at 140k, a middle/junior manager at 70k and a nurse on the frontline at 40k. Its a bit rich to add the three wages and then divide by 3 and assume (as many members of our society think) that the nurse is earning in the region of 80k a year !!
Thats the way people like liathroidboy in their ignorance see it imo !!
___________________
I would disagree - An average wage is an accurate view of any organsiation as a whole
to take your example
If the HSE had one senior manager and one middle manager for every 25 nurses - the average wage will be circa
€45k -
If the organisation becomes top-heavy and you end with one HSE manager and one middle manager for every nurse the average wage increases to €70k.

- What has happended is that people through pay incrememnts - or have got promotions by virtue of years of service rather than
ability or performance -

If you take Aer Lingus -the average wage is high because people in administration roles have been promoted over the years
The grade 6 envelope opener is on €50k a year because he has been there for 30years not because his job is worth 50k a year

Purely a result of union driven pay demands that will wreck the company - Doesn't matter in HSE as there is no competition that is why we have 700 people on pay grades over €100k versus a dozen in the days of the health boards

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 26/02/2011 14:02:06    876841

ruanua,

We will differ on that so !!
Disguising the rates of pay at the bottom level and painting a picture that is untrue will only anger those workers !! So they are below average pay as none of them earn that "average" wage !! I am only speaking for my own area !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 26/02/2011 14:37:27    876858

Which sector has the higher concentration of graduates and which sector has the highest concentration of people working in a professional capacity Hag ?

Well you see that I am making the point on equivalent job in the private sector..... if it equivalent jobs then it is equilivant qualifications then right??? most of the jobs in the private sector that dosen't require graduate qualifactions would be in retail, manufacturing, hospitality (hotels etc.) is there an equilivant in the public sector here?? same can be said for the front line jobs their may not be equilivants in the private sector and these are the positions which should be paid more and aren't.

It's not all propaganda in the media their is some truth there, and the way the unions publisise it their view is not different to what the media has done on the other side.

So you think the public sector runs grand then there is nothing that can be changed in it really and the pay structures are grand right??

Yes I am talking about the Jim O'Leary I don't see what point your trying to make here this is a man that was part of the comission and saw what was going on he was not fired remember!!! So much he not be in a position to give an educated view on it, think you shot yourself in the foot there.

On the last point is there much of the print media that have came out in support of the public sector?? Also I tend to quote independant reports with many of my points.

On unions if you look at their website (impact) they don't know what benchmarking is I quote:
"Benchmarking is a way of reviewing public sector pay." that is not benchmarking!!
"The benchmarking body did not make its pay recommendations conditional on specific changes in working practices for each grade it considered. It said this was not practical because it would have meant establishing the needs of each employment in the public sector." If they did do this you would be getting closer to what bench marking is but then again their is still no mention of adopting best practise what is what benchmarking is.

Also to get a flavour of the jobs that benefitted from benchmarking:

"Was every public sector job benchmarked?

No. It would have been impossible to look at every public sector job in the time available, and this was made clear in the PPF. Instead, the Benchmarking Body looked at a large number of traditional marker grades, which directly or indirectly set pay rates for other grades. These include clerical and administrative staff, engineering grades and graduate professions."

Many of these positions were already the best paid positions....

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 10:14:23    877678

Cavan_Slasher:

Can I make one point on your personal situation, are you or any of your department a member of a Union and if you are do you support the way your union represented your area??

Also with apparant union misrepresentation within the public sector why are their not people speaking up against this? I think the unions have managed to shift all the blame to the government in regards their members.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 11:32:48    877776

Hag & Cheese,

All are members in my area and not because they want to be but because it was the done thing when they joined. They can be helpful at times but when individuals look for clarification or for something to be done on issues that effect only one or two it is nearly impossible to get anything back from them. They are too close to the Government, like tweedledum and tweedledee imo !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/02/2011 12:12:27    877841

Hag give it up about benchmarking will you, we've taken enough paycuts to render that point null and void, build a bridge and get over it.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12370 - 28/02/2011 12:26:36    877864

Breffni39:

Just because ye took yer paycuts dosen't mean my arguement is null in void!!! A proper way to bench mark would have been looking at public services in other countries (and private sector to a lesser extent) implement best practise insuring efficency and them look at wages taking into consideration the cost of living and also rate of inflation....

The way iot was done was a bodge job thus the way it was undone was also a bodge job!!

Were you happy with all this benchmarking malarky..... I think you were as you work as a civil servant right ye did alright out of it in relation to front line services!!

Cavan_Slasher:
Do you think the unions were effective for ye in realtion to the rest of the public sector as you correctly point out front line services can't be bench marked against the private sector really can they yet this was the criteria used!!

I've no time for mary o'rourke but one thing she said today I'd agree with the last government were controled by the public sector/unions to a degree (not with anything to do with banking mind) but the unions would like people to think it was the government controlling them..... hopefully fine gael will stick to the right center alignment now and give the unions less of a say in things but if they go in with labour I think we'er back to what we had before. A left center and right center coilition gives you centerism in my view and that was what Finna Fail and the green were in the last government.... Socialism done right has it's place in a strong economy boom times.... i believe it will hold back the economy in a recession, right center neoliberalism is they way to go I think.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 14:46:51    878079

No MR Kenny our great leader- please rip up the croke park agreement with immediate effect. the most important thing for the new governemet is to fight communism.

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 28/02/2011 15:03:33    878094

Also I'm awear that socialism focusing on public service spending has gotten countries out of recession i.e the u.s in the great depression (the war had a lot to do with this aswell) also stimlus packages could be referred to as a bit of socialism.... but my arguement here is that ireland is too broke to do any of this and neoliberalism done right is out only path out...... one of the main area's here is making sure that government do not run large deficits which is what we have at the moment which we can sustain.

Granted Capitalism gave us the good times capitalism mismanaged lead to the recession, capitalism (neolimeralism done right can get us out). We can conpared our selves to the social democrats like scandanavia etc. they have higher taxation and are not as dependant on foreign direct investment as we are.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/02/2011 15:07:08    878101

HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 4439

878079 Breffni39:

Just because ye took yer paycuts dosen't mean my arguement is null in void!!! A proper way to bench mark would have been looking at public services in other countries (and private sector to a lesser extent) implement best practise insuring efficency and them look at wages taking into consideration the cost of living and also rate of inflation....

The way iot was done was a bodge job thus the way it was undone was also a bodge job!!

Were you happy with all this benchmarking malarky..... I think you were as you work as a civil servant right ye did alright out of it in relation to front line services!!

I take it you're the type that'd turn down a payrise hag?

Your points about benchmarking might have been valid at the time, but we've since taken significant pay cuts so maybe try to beat us with a different stick.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12370 - 28/02/2011 15:15:52    878114