That would be the first step and i would take it from there. then i would establish core and non core people. the non core i would eliminate or outsource them.

How do you establish who is core and non-core!!! What sort of measurement would you use how would you measure proformance is it just be throught put or output!!

I would ask all manager to rate each employee out of 10- and get rid of the useless ones.
That very subjective isn't it!! Who rates the managers if anything these days it has shown us that managers are more often the none the problem also with the crude model you seem to live by which companies do implement it's normally with management where they start making cuts first!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 15:00:42    870757

typo
with your attitude if I own a business I wouldn't want your consultant advice.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 15:10:22    870771

Hag & Cheese,

I think liathroidboy is making a good case as to why Unions are important for protecting workers' rights !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 18/02/2011 15:18:10    870780

HAG believe me if your company was going to te wall and there was a chance you would lose everything you own - you would be welcoming me with open arms!

You ask the manager who they need ie who they couldnt work without , yes it is subjective but the only objective data available is the productivity of the employee. but the manager would know this anyways so as i usually work in crisis situations so the managers answer is best. performance is always measured in output especially in restructuring situations.

you see HAG you must be systematic - this is the cute ploy- you tell the managers (lower managers) that their job is safe and get all the information on employees you need from them, also you ask them what the MD could do better. then you do the same from the MD/CEO in realtion to the lower managers. so then you have all relevant info from all parties and you can get rid of all non core employees and managers and you can give the advice from lower managers back to the CEO/MD- believe me it works.

its only employees that ever say management are the problem when in fact its the employees who resist management instruction and basically do not do as they are told- a perfect example of this is the HSE - the employees are unmanagable and simply do not listen to management yet blame management for their own failures- all stems back to egos and entitlement enstilled by unions

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 18/02/2011 15:27:25    870799

liathroidboy:

I see you still havn't gone into detail of method methodoligies and measurements don't be afraid to get technical I think I'll understand if you do so are are a business consultant then.... what you propose reminds of a film called office space you remind me of the two bobs (think that was their names) brought in to make the cuts. So have you implemented such a model in a business you did consultantcy work for if so what were the impacts..... again go into detail if you can your being very vage as it is what sort of tools and methodologies do you use. Also what sort of a timeframe would you expect to be lean in what would you do about implementing continuos improvement and innovation.

its only employees that ever say management are the problem when in fact its the employees who resist management instruction and basically do not do as they are told
Don't agree there if anything the public sector bureaucracy has show us that management are one are that hold back innovation and efficency.

So do you admit what you stated about google is off the mark then!!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 15:51:40    870835

bureaucracy came about in thepublic sector in relation to employees becoming increasing difficult to manage i.e. its the unions fault, employee think they work for themselves and the unions and not the HSE. the simple question is would the HSE as a service be better or worse without unions? and deep down we all know we are paying billions into the HSE just to keep the unions happy when we dont need to, unions have no problem letting people die so why should anyone care about them or the lazy people the represent

On the methodologies used in resturcturing, there are many books and papers wrote on the topic im not going to sit here and type out about a 1000 pages on how you go through a company with a fine tooth comb- safe to say you approach it with the attitude that everything is there to be eliminated. on becoming lean it depends if ther is a union involved but results are usually visable in 2-3 months without a union and 3- 6 with a union.

where do you thibnk i was wrong about google???? i was 100% right as always so i dont get what your saying - perhaps its something got to do with your agenda.

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 18/02/2011 16:05:57    870857

On the methodologies used in resturcturing, there are many books and papers wrote on the topic im not going to sit here and type out about a 1000 pages

I'm not looking for that just name some of the methodologies or tools you use if your were a consultant you'd have no trouble doing that..... for example the focus of my masters is in Multi-Criteria Decision Analysis..... that's just one there are hundreds out there!! What about change management, Business process re-engineering etc. any of them ring a bell with you.

where do you thibnk i was wrong about google???? i was 100% right as always so i dont get what your saying - perhaps its something got to do with your agenda.
You got the wages wrong forgot to mention perks, got their business model wrong said they only hire contract staff I gave you proof that that incorrect.
I think your the one persuing an agenda.... I think it's funny you have you opinions but when your pressed for more detail you come back with the same vage stuff again!!In the words of one of ireland top business men your nothing but a spoofer!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 16:31:19    870877

on becoming lean it depends if ther is a union involved but results are usually visable in 2-3 months without a union and 3- 6 with a union.

I set the trap and you fell for it it's accepted in the industry that the really so no viable timeframe for lean as you will never be truely lean there always inprovement but if you were a consultant in lean. Anyone that's sets a time frame for lean at the start dosen't really know what their talking about. What about Lean tools what do you use and how do you use them??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 16:36:35    870884

on becoming lean it depends if ther is a union involved but results are usually visable in 2-3 months without a union and 3- 6 with a union.

I set the trap and you fell into it it accepted in the industry that there is no really viable time frame to become truely lean as really you'll never become totally if you knew what you were talking about you could have total me that..... what lean tools do you use and how do you use them. Also many of your opinions fall in the common myths about lean!!

http://www.gembutsu.com/articles/leanmyths.html

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 16:42:32    870886

(missing a bit)

but if you were a consultant in lean you could have told me that!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 16:47:59    870892

HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 4370

870543 Seems both of you define value purely in business terms. That is an extremely narrow view of the word value. You both need to realise that we live in a society not an economy. The economy is a very important part of society. The economy is primarily concerned with the generationn of money through entrepeneurship, ingenuity and initiative. I would venture to say that those qualities are valuable.

Pardon???

How do you mean I defined it as a product or a service customer is willing to pay for thus they will define if it is of value to them.... ur on about teachers well they get paid so we are the customers (tax payer) and thus should be controlled by what add value in that sense.

I thought we were defining it in term of business and I was pointing out that ballbay had an incorrect definition of it.

There are other definition of value i.e personal values, moral value society value etc.

So pop down off your soap box there for a sec!

I wasn't on a soapbox Hag. I was merely articulating an observation that both you and liathroidi through the medium of your respective posts defined value in very narrow terms. You now acknowledge that value should be defined in much broader terms That at least is progress.
Liathroidi on the other hand never acknowledged what I said despite the fact that he regularly accuses people of not debating with him.
By the way Hag less of the tarty little replies when somebody points out the blindingly obvious to you.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 18/02/2011 17:11:23    870911

By the way Hag less of the tarty little replies when somebody points out the blindingly obvious to you.

Well the definition was in the context of a business..... it's the way you pointed it out calling it narrow minded!!! I'm well awear of the definition of value in other contexts!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 17:20:21    870920

I have just read your correspondence with liathroidi Hag and I have to say it was athing of beauty. Nobody can ever again take his deluded rants seriously. He is as yoou say a SPOOFER. I laughed long and hard after your last post. Great job !

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 18/02/2011 17:26:53    870925

Oh liathroidi where are you ? Come out to play ? Hag is ready for you. Aw liathroidi why won't you debate with Hag ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 18/02/2011 17:30:45    870926

Greengrass:

In hindsight sorry if I came off as being a bit pompous in my reply I think we'er pretty much on the same page!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 17:31:12    870927

Ha ha Hag, you gave him just enough line to hang himself !! Very funny, i enjoyed that !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 18/02/2011 17:50:14    870946

oh lord HAG- you really do amaze me, all you are doing is offering alternative meansto what i say but its pointless with you as you only view things one way- your proving nothing bar there are different ways of doing things - would it not just be safer for me to say i use qualitative analysis does that sort it for you. its pointess debating with you on this i use my method you use other methods i couldnt be bothered going into the finer details - you may have plenty of time for deep sophisticaed anaysis talk.

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 18/02/2011 17:54:12    870951

new minimum wage being introduced in hotels - im loving it :)

HAG is a positivist i am a phenonologist in researh methods- never the two shall meet

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 18/02/2011 17:57:18    870955

would it not just be safer for me to say i use qualitative analysis does that sort it for you.

Just qualitive analysis would you use quantative analysis aswell..... what sort of qualitive analysis methods??? If I asked if you had a black belt would you know what I'm talking about??

Again that a bit vage just saying qualitive analysis what sory of metrics or measures would you use..... would you be firmilar with the term True North would you use SPC.

I'm just the student here your supposed to be the master yet you can't go into any detail??

Do you agree with what I said about the time frame for Lean.... so many question directed at you but so few answears and yet your the expert??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 18:55:46    871024

you may have plenty of time for deep sophisticaed anaysis talk.

For a man that's so busy you seem to have plenty of time to post of HS least I have an excuse I'm a student.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 18/02/2011 18:58:50    871032