bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2560


"The modern IRA targeted civilians"

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I very much doubt the Cities of Bordeaux, St Etienne, Le Mans,Vierzon, Tehran and Saint - Denis would have named Streets after Vol. Bobby Sands had this been the case.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 02/12/2010 19:49:32    826789

Give over now monkey boy as you are displaying a serious froth at the mouth style,blue shirt,ultra right wing fascist and Fine Gael mindset.You are entitled to hold such opinions off course,its just becoming boorish and unimaginative at this point.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 02/12/2010 20:14:30    826821

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2033

826487
'My previous post was intended to highlight the virtue of loyalty to friends and nationhood'

You have to question what kind of people have 'friends' who gun down a hard working father of five who was only doing his job. Most people would be disgusted by organisations that have friends like that.

You have a point Plunkett,the Free Staters have much to be ashamed off in how they carried on at the states inception.Blowing people, who were once your friends,to pieces by tying them to a landmine in Kerry,or executing them in Drumboe.Shocking stuff right?

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 02/12/2010 20:20:19    826824

PomeroyPlunkett just going through your posts and you mention of the poeple the IRA killed then you have the cheek to have a pop at me for saying bout the british , double standards there .

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 02/12/2010 20:43:45    826851

Firstly let me say that there is no virtue in killing. No one should be lauded for killing ANYONE. However if we can not bother to understand why the killing is happening we will never be able to stop it. Condemning the perpetrators and demonizing and marginalizing whole communities be they local or global only perpetuates the conditions and circumstances that will in reality perpetuate the violence. Anyone with an open mind who has ever read any passage of history should be aware of this. The current Sinn Fein leadership at least have learned that to leave the republican movement out in the cold was the same thing as sentencing history to repeat it self. They succeeded in getting the Republican movement by and large to Decommission as opposed to dump arms. I do hope that is not to much for some of you to understand. There are no pikes in the thatch anymore. Those commentators that insist that Sinn Fein should have or must now disown the IRA do not have the future of this Island at heart; they are either stuck in the past or are pushing particular political agendas. Because the last thing we now need is for republicans to once again feel disenfranchised.
And in regard to the claim that the Old Ira are in some way paragons of virtue and the Provo's were the incarnation of Satan himself: Well those who claim this really should remove the scales from their eyes. The Ira of 1918 t0 1922 were just as violent and socially destructive as were the later republicans. They disappeared and assassinated more informers and collaborators than the Provo's did in 40 years. They carried out bombings even before the conflict had started. The Ira of the war of independence was denounced from the altars and in pastoral letters for their actions. After the treaty was signed those Ira members that joined the Free State army were guilty of the most horrendous crimes while fighting their former comrades. After the end of the civil war the Old Ira remained intact and the same personnel who had fought for the freedom of the 26 counties continued to gather arms and munitions as best they could. Indeed one of our greatest heroes of the war of independence represented them in negotiations with the German (Nazi) government. They went on to carry out a bombing campaign in the UK. And for those of you who wish can research the consequences of it in the London underground and Coventry. Perhaps you should if you wish to have your romantic notions of the Old Ira put to the test have a look at the events in west cork after the treaty.
In truth I happy to debate the right and wrongs of the conflict either in 1921 or 1971 but I would wish to do so with people who do in fact have an understanding of the nature of the IRA then and now.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 02/12/2010 20:58:06    826864

derryman

Re the old and modern IRA.

I would be of the opinion that the IRA had a greater moral right to embark upon an armed campaign in 1970 than the IRA of 1919 did; the Nationalists of the north were imprisoned in a State which they had no allegiance, a State which discriminated against and ignored their culture and civil rights. As bad as things were in 1919, it was nothing compared to Bombay Street.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 02/12/2010 21:36:44    826899

I brought up the deplorable actions of the IRA in west cork recently and the nationalists on here flat denied these events ever took place. It's hard to argue with that kind of mentality which air brushes history

In whole that was a very good post derryman, I would consider the violence of the old IRA as unacceptable as the modern group. Who knows how far the country would have come without these groups

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4649 - 02/12/2010 21:41:26    826905

People still getting taken in by British Intelligence I see. When will some of you learn that you are being made fools of by the usual suspects?

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9818 - 02/12/2010 21:43:46    826908

Artisan there are some of us here on this forum that are prepared to look at history with an open mind. I believe you are one of them. I think you can now expect to be bombarded with closed minds that will take a great exception to your analysis. I do not .

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 02/12/2010 21:57:51    826927

Lads I have absolutely no political or religious preference unlike most on this thread. My main point is that I do not believe this island will ever be a 32 county island. Not that I don't wish it was, i just think the boat has sailed. The violence will start again just as bad or worse than before and no solution at the end of it. So lads, No cause is worth the slaughter of innocent people, and that is all that will be achieved if we go down this road again. Todays IRA rob banks and are huge players in the drug industry, as are their opposite number no doubt. So if the boys on here think that these clowns have some noble cause behind their acts, then we really can't move on?

jonny1951 (Mayo) - Posts: 1431 - 03/12/2010 09:15:42    826938

Johnny1951
The comrades who shot Garda McCabe were robbing a post office, what has that got to do with being a republican?

The comrades that shot Patrick MacDonnell and James O'Connell were robbing a quarry, what has that got to do with being a republican?

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 03/12/2010 09:45:02    826944

Bad Monkey
I would consider the violence of the old IRA as unacceptable as the modern group. Who knows how far the country would have come without these groups Indeed I could not agree more.
Which leaves me wondering where we might be if their involvement had never been forced upon the Irish people

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 03/12/2010 09:47:45    826947

Pomeroy and bad.monkey, you'se guys are seriously stuck in the past. Practically every post you hark back to events which happened quite some time ago, time to move on folks, the war is over.

The thread was initially about Doherty winning a resounding election success and how it may affect the future of the country, remember!?

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 03/12/2010 09:52:21    826949

jonny1951
County: Mayo
Posts: 501

826498
I think all political threads should be scrapped, some of the rubbish on here is beyond belief, from both sides. And Seanieboy, there is no point trying to respond to you, very set in your beliefs, which I believe are the kind of beliefs that will drag us back into the dark days. And todays republican comrades as you like to call them are nothing like the ones at the time of the states inception. The comrades who shot Garda McCabe were robbing a post office, what has that got to do with being a republican?

I voted for the Good Friday Agreement.I am not supportive of armed actions to bring about a united Ireland at this juncture.Politically I have already stated that I am a republican,just as Bertie Ahern and Eamon De Valera and Tom Barry have stated in the past.I have been critical of many actions of the provisional republican movement,mostly because I believed them to be wrong,unlike some on here mouthing off just to hear themselves.I believe what happened with Garda Mc Cabe was a tragedy,it was wrong and should not have happened.I have also said that conflict should not be wished for as there really is little romance in it,Patrique can verify that I have indeed said this on previous threads.As I grew up in the north there were opportunities for me to get involved and I did not.Even with the benefit of hindsight I can't be completely sure about why I didn't.Its possible that fear played a part,and I know for sure that my perceived wrongs of the provisional campaign came to bear on my thoughts at this time.I can say with certainty that I am glad I never had to get involved and as Derryman has said,"There but for the grace of god go I".Those that did get involved had their reasons,family history played a part,where you grew up and other factors too numerous to recount became important.I believe many things Johnny1951,and I believe that sometimes,in certain places,certain people have the right to fight back.As a republican they are my friends,neighbours,cousins and uncles,they were the lad who sat beside me in school,they were my sisters boyfriend and others.I will always stand beside them because I know that they are good people.Do you know any of these people Johnny?

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 03/12/2010 09:52:57    826950

You are missing the point, this war that would have to start I believe is not winnable.Just my opinion. I am not slating your beliefs, just stating my opionion. More deaths, violence, divided communities and no resolution again, that is what i believe would be the end product.

jonny1951 (Mayo) - Posts: 1431 - 03/12/2010 10:26:06    826958

'Artisan there are some of us here on this forum that are prepared to look at history with an open mind. I believe you are one of them. I think you can now expect to be bombarded with closed minds that will take a great exception to your analysis. I do not . '

Haha I love that one. If you agree with Derryman you're open-minded, if you don't you're close minded. Must use that in the future. To be fair though it makes a welcome change from his usual sob story, you can practically hear the violins in Belfast

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 03/12/2010 11:06:15    826980

Johnny1951
What are you talking about I see no-one on this thread or any other call for war and to a man every poster especially the republican minded posters have stated that they are glad the war is over. What we are asking now is that Sinn Fein be given a chance to further the cause of Irish unification through the political process.
We are asking that they be given the same respect in politics as did the activists of the war of independence. Or would you prefer that Gerry Adams along with 4 or 5 other prominent sinn Feiners started a new party called Fianna na eirann (or some such) condemn the IRA (and condemn Ireland to another generation of disenfrancfhised republicans) and advocate that all suspected members be interned then you would all feel much better about that and vote him in as president one day. Well I am afraid that is not going to happen. The last thing Ireland needs now are another generation or two of self serving politicians who are only concerned with me rather than we. Now is the time for Ireland to reinvent itself and that will be done with learning from the past and buliding a new future. Not by tripping over the past and condeming Ireland to more of the same.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 03/12/2010 11:07:18    826981

Pomeroy Plunkett.
What I regard as closed minds are those who sit back and think "well we are free of the english Yoke I dont know how it was acchieved but I know that the Good Patriotic men and woman who acchieved this for us never did anything wrong they were all saints but those who rebelled afterwards are all sinners and criminals who should be damned to hell" For what it is worth I was not referring to you.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 03/12/2010 11:46:14    827004

hipster
County: Dublin
Posts: 2010

826663 we are never going to go forward as a nation if you have people dragging everything up , we are all against murder well i hope we are its time this country evolved and we grew a pair of ba..s we only replaced the begging bowl of england and replaced it with the ecc now look at us we are yet the beggars of europe again i would just urge people to actually listen to all parties this time and let your head not your hatred for other parties make the decision to vote

Very sensible open minded view there hipster. Well said

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 03/12/2010 15:03:52    827172

jonny1951
County: Mayo
Posts: 503

826958
You are missing the point, this war that would have to start I believe is not winnable.Just my opinion. I am not slating your beliefs, just stating my opionion. More deaths, violence, divided communities and no resolution again, that is what i believe would be the end product.

I am not calling for a war to be waged Johnny1951,not sure what you mean by this? Plus you did say my beliefs were likely to drag the north back into conflict,or something to that effect.Just wanted to stress that a resumption of armed conflict is the last thing I would want to see.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 03/12/2010 18:36:48    827361