I understand why good men are driven to acts of violence

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I'm sure some of the UVF/UDA murderers weren't all bad, but they were driven to acts of violence. I'm sure some of the Paras on Bloody Sunday weren't all bad, but they were driven to acts of violence. I'm sure that the guys who planted the bombs on Remembrance Day in Enniskillen weren't all bad, but they were driven to acts of violence.

This sort of attempted justification is poisonous Derryman, and dangerous too. Gunmen, whatever side they are on, are to be reviled, not admired and they shouldn't have excuses made for them.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 28/11/2010 20:59:02    824234

Seamus89

Including Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy McCracken, Michael Collins, Dan Breen, Ernie O'Malley, James Connolly, Pearse, Plunkett, Casement?????? Does a nation that is under foreign occupation not have the right to take action and defend itself against the occupiers, colonial aggressors and land stealers?????? Whether you agreed with the IRA campaign from 69 - 96 or not most of those who took up Republican arms did so out of political ideology and are no different from previous generations of Irishmen who fought the British; anyone who says different is a hypocrite.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9818 - 28/11/2010 21:26:12    824261

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 2846

824261
Seamus89

Including Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy McCracken, Michael Collins, Dan Breen, Ernie O'Malley, James Connolly, Pearse, Plunkett, Casement?????? Does a nation that is under foreign occupation not have the right to take action and defend itself against the occupiers, colonial aggressors and land stealers?????? Whether you agreed with the IRA campaign from 69 - 96 or not most of those who took up Republican arms did so out of political ideology and are no different from previous generations of Irishmen who fought the British; anyone who says different is a hypocrite.

Spot on Ulsterman.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 28/11/2010 21:55:41    824280

When I was 12 years of age I watched the long march to Derry wind its way around Maghera I was unsure what all this commotion was about. But I felt , having listened to the conversations of my fellow 15 and 16 year old adult travellers on the bus that this was something to be admired. I sat in the kitchen with the rest of my family at six in the evening and listened to the news bulletin relay the facts of the ambush at Burntollet I was still confused but was aware that this made my, not at all republican father and mother, angry. I then became more politically curious I suppose as each week brought more evidence of the wrongs in the society that I lived in. In august 14th 1969 I was in Belfast when the rioting and burning was at its worst. When we made our way out and were nearly home we were stopped by Bmen and my father interrogated by a neighbour that knew him well and the next day would be his neighbour again. I listened to the reports of the battle of the bogside . I heard first hand evidence of the fatalities on bloody Sunday before it had made the news. I eavesdropped on the adult conversations of those who had taken some part in these events. My curiosity was peaked and I took it upon myself to learn Irish History. I came across the book Guerilla Days in Ireland and was in the process of reading it under the tilly lamp when my mother confiscated it without explanation. I bought My Fight for Irish freedom on a pilgrimage to knock and a fellow pilgrim, a nun smuggled it over the border for me in her habit, after having secured a promise from me that I would lend it to her after I had read it. I then grew up over the next few years on a diet of "The Troubles" no-one scholared me to be republican but in my view it was obvious that we were at war.

Unlike many of you that are blessed to be able to make decisions and form opinions from the safety of distance, be that geographically or in the future, regarding the situation: I had to form my opinions and make my decisions in the middle of the events as they unfolded around me. I watched people I knew and was related to suffer greatly at the hands of the security forces. I watched my fellow Irishmen be interned tortured and die at the hands of an occupying army assisted by their agents. I was harassed on my way to school and later to work by the security forces. I watched as good men died on hunger strike for the cause they believed in. I attended their funerals and grew angrier at the injustices visited upon our country by foreign forces. I made a conscious decision not to join the resistance movement. I still have not reconciled within myself whether I made that decision motivated by cowardice or by virtue. I do not know whether I should hang my head in shame or lift it with pride

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 29/11/2010 08:50:54    824293

I arrived at my decision from what was a relatively safe and uninvolved part of Derry. What my decision would have been had I been from somewhere more involved or a family more persecuted or an up bringing less stable. Had I watched my father or brothers being interned? Had I watched these foreign forces raid and ransack my home? Had I been forced each summer to allow the coatrailing spectacle pass through my village or street? Had I learned earlier of the great heroes and martyrs of Ireland my decision might have been vastly different. So therefore "There but for the Grace of God go I". It is so easy to know what is right when looking from the outside in or reading about it in a history book. I condemn all acts of violence but condemnation of the individual regardless of what organisation they represented I will leave to God. I, as my saviour instructed me, will judge not, in the hope that I will not be judged. Judge no-one until you have walked one mile in their shoes.
The truth is most people who condemn the decisions made by republicans never were required to make decisions, they have the comfort of being able to form opinions based on articles or books written more often than not, by others who never had to make decisions either. And a second truth is that should Sinn Feins current strategy unite Ireland at some time in the future these republicans that are now vilified will be given equal status to the republicans of pre 1922.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 29/11/2010 08:52:35    824294

Excellent post Derryman!

Derry_ledd (Derry) - Posts: 2093 - 29/11/2010 11:40:58    824370

Fair play derryman, a well thought out post however dont expect a response as well reasoned as your own from the detractors on the board. It's much easier for them to condemn rather than open their minds.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 29/11/2010 13:15:06    824449

Derryledd.
Ihave tried to be honest and to show that there is no simplistic generalisation that can be applied from afar.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 29/11/2010 13:16:16    824451

Great post Derryman.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 29/11/2010 14:27:32    824504

I have tried to be honest and to show that there is no simplistic generalisation that can be applied from afar.

I'm sorry that my simplistic generalisation-murdering innocent civilians is wrong-is not to your liking. There is a profound difference between the IRA of the War of Independence era and the Provos, both when it comes to the necessity and practicality of the campaign (bombing Protestants into a United Ireland was never going to work) and the conduct in carrying it out (I don't think Tom Barry would have murdered a young mother who was handing out census forms, as an IRA member did in Derry in the early 80s.

Finally, as for the religious aspect of your post, I remember reading a book written by a Redemptorist priest based in Belfast. He spoke about how he had confronted violence in the North. He'd often say at Mass, 'that if someone here has put on a balaclava and murdered another human being, that on the day of judgement, Jesus himself will look you in the eye, and you will have no mask to hide behind. Then you will have to account for the blood you have spilled.'

That was a poweful message, that really got through to me, and helped wipe away the stench of my earlier IRA sympathies. Suffice to say that I would not want to be a Provo on Judgement Day.

Seamus89 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 3848 - 29/11/2010 16:37:16    824619

That was a poweful message, that really got through to me, and helped wipe away the stench of my earlier IRA sympathies. Suffice to say that I would not want to be a Provo on Judgement Day.

Thats a very black and white view you paint Seamus, when the situation in NI was far from Black and White. Also it may be true for some Provos, but you could say exact same for British Soldiers, Orange men, B Specials etc etc etc also........... and Priests for that matter. Its not for me, you or even a Priest to Judge though.

Derry_ledd (Derry) - Posts: 2093 - 29/11/2010 16:47:36    824627

.... and just want to make the point Seamus. If I were to join Sinn Fein today (Im 24), i would be joining a political party who are fully committed to peaceful progress, yet you would still see fit to accuse me of having blood on my hands, how would you justify this? In my eyes Sinn Fein are the most progressive Party on this Island and are the only party who have Ireland really at heart, where too many other politicians have their wallet and their Cronies at heart.

Derry_ledd (Derry) - Posts: 2093 - 29/11/2010 16:53:16    824631

Derry_ledd
County: Derry
Posts: 1386

824631 .... and just want to make the point Seamus. If I were to join Sinn Fein today (Im 24), i would be joining a political party who are fully committed to peaceful progress, yet you would still see fit to accuse me of having blood on my hands, how would you justify this? In my eyes Sinn Fein are the most progressive Party on this Island and are the only party who have Ireland really at heart, where too many other politicians have their wallet and their Cronies at heart.

Well said derry-led. And derryman - really enjoyed reading your posts. Not so much the replies. I know who my fellow Irishmen are, and at times i wonder where exactly the border-lines are.

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 29/11/2010 17:11:39    824650

Good post there Derryman.I had similar experiences to yourself growing up and not too far from your home.I wonder sometimes at the attitudes of supposedly fellow Irish people but then history has taught us that there are always those types about.

northpole (Derry) - Posts: 739 - 29/11/2010 18:26:05    824736

derryman.
outstanding post and a articulate account of the times and pressures that we were under in a such dark time in irish history . well said .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 29/11/2010 19:09:26    824770

ulsterman.
i concour with another poster , well said you are spot on . goodman.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 29/11/2010 19:27:20    824789

On the one hand Derryman is a devout Catholic, on the other hand he is a man who tries to justify the actions of terrorists who murdered men, women and children for the sheer thrill of it. The man needs to sort out what he believes himself before he preaches his hate to others

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 29/11/2010 19:52:10    824819

Pomeroy, I think the whole point of the post was that he can't justify it, but also that he can't condemn it which is totally different from what you're saying - that he's attempting to justify the killing of children.

It's like I alway say. I have no opinion on the troubles, I'm just saddened by them. I'm not a violent person but i can't form an opinion on things that I was not present for. Much like if you're too young to remember the troubles like yourself pomeroy. I would not like to tell derryman my opinion on the troubles no more than I would tell a japanese man whether the bomb should have fallen on hiroshima or not. I would like to think that we can learn from the likes of derryman though. Your blinkered unionist opinion won't let you.

Derryman, that was one of the best posts I've read on these forums. Great stuff.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 30/11/2010 09:34:04    824947

That old chestnut, unless you were directly involved or lived through it you can't have an opinion. I lived through part of the troubles and my whole family did and I form part of my opinion based on these experiences. I'm not as weak as you and so I'm not constantly apologising for having an opinion on it, I'll argue for what I believe to be true. I don't know why you even post on these sort of threads considering you think your own opinion on the subject is worthless. The Church's position was crystal clear during the Troubles and any person who considers themself to be a true Christian would outright condemn and be disgusted at the mindless violence and killing. Derryman's refusal to do so shows this side of him as being nothing more than a complete and utter lie. The staunch Catholic who doesn't even respect or recognise people's right to life, give me a break

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 30/11/2010 10:49:13    824975

Exactly Plunkett,may gods curse be on George Washington and the Continental Army for their actions also.How dare they defy the divine authority of the King of England.May the same divine retribution be delivered upon the souls of the men of Easter 1916,and all those who ever fought back since time immortal.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 30/11/2010 15:18:26    825238