Slasher:

from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take

You still havn't told me why i fall into this category.

3. Public Sector did lag behind Private sector wages years ago 1970's into 80's !!

That was 40 years ago and the reason for the lag may have been the influx of multinationals in the 1960's when pay did go up.

Look at average here compared to the u.k the average public sector wage in the u.k is around £23,660 average private sector is around £21,528, that's about a 7% difference... convert that to euro and see how it compares when the average public wage in ireland is about 45,000 euro now and private sector around 33,000 euro that a 19% difference compared to around 7% in the u.k

Also the cost of living in ireland may be higher but wages are alot higher too up to 15,000 euro more on average for public sector workers.... saying that private sector wages I think need to come down more too to help us remain compeditive and also to drive down costs..... Also the cost of living has come down we are the country in europe with the highest deflation and will be next year too.

Have a look at this graph tracking wages
http://ronanlyons.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wages-graph.png

Also look at the cso statistics over the lasy few years private sector has taken the hit in wages and number over the last 2 years, the public sectors even increased last year but seems will be check now.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2009/earnlabcosts_q32009.pdf
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/earnlabcosts.pdf

Also have a look at this
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

look at the rise in average earning since 2000 there has to be someone in the public sector that is making the money.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Do the increase in earning look logical to you no matter what the cost of living most have gone up by more than 40%

Also your the one that's the older here I've tried to present an arguement with out insults and back up my arguement you resorted to calling me for better words a sponge and made little childish remarks like "Will you be happy if wages are cut again and will you stop crying then ? "

I had time for you on this forum but ever since the "from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take" I lost time for you and you've still failed to explain why you classed me as that.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 12:10:30    825042

Hag,

I turned against you because of your continuous crying and complaining !! Simple as !! Anything you post has a cut and burn element to it !! I have always believed that if you invest money in the poorer people then they will spend it and lead to more manufacturing jobs and personal happiness !! Patrique explained that quite well on several posts but you completely ignored his comments because they did not suit your agenda !! Half of the stuff you printed i have not read because it is in the same vein of cut and burn and i believe we cannot slash and burn our way out of this recession, so i didn't even bother reading it as its more of the same !!

maybe i did take an unfair dig at you do you think you might have deserved a bit of that. All i can say is that when i joined the P.S. in the 1970's the wages were not great and the Unions which you seem to have no time for got stuck in and got us fair wages in comparison to private sector workers !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 30/11/2010 12:30:02    825058

Cavan_Slasher:

Crying and complaining??? I was presenting an arguement as you were doing so are you drying and complaining??

How can you disregard my arguement when you don't even look at the evidence i gave you yes help the poorer people but at an average wage of nearly 50,000 these are cso figures over the last 10 years or so in the public sector how are they the poorest people?? Another thing I've found out which has surprised me is that there is not the levels of managers I thought there was within the public sector think 3% of the work force in the public sector is classes as managers who's getting the high wages then??

I agree we can't slash and burn our way out of recession but if history has shown us anything it's getting the lowere paid back to work look at the great depression it was money invested in building infrustructure with the country and to an extent the onset of ww2 that got the work force mobilised. I not saying war will be the answear but get the less well off back to work and stop paying highly paid people that may not be needed or moved to other sectors throught driving reform.

Wonce again you havn't answeard.... how am i classed as "from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take" I've been made redundant so far twice in my career by companies relocation due to cost (why wages need to come down) and have went back to college twice now without a grant and paying my own way.

Patrique explained that quite well on several posts but you completely ignored his comments because they did not suit your agenda

Point me towards Patrique comments!! and i have adressed patrique i think at one stage asking him about union and the effect on work forces seen as they were set in the industrial era when working conditions could kill you and there was no minimun wage also questioned him about the decline of unions in most of the world bar scandanavian countries.

which you seem to have no time for got stuck in and got us fair wages in comparison to private sector workers !!
What do you class as a fair wage now when it outstrips other countries even when the cost of living is taken into account.... public and private sector wages are still too high in ireland and they need to be adjusted over time.

Ireland spending last year was 69 billion day to day spending (with bailouts etc.) we took in shy of 50 billion and public sector wages made up 20 billion of that.... every one need to take a hit including social welfare creating more jobs is the answear and not public sector jobs as your only increasing you spending again.

Benchmark against the u.k if they want to "benchmark" wages they've made cuts in wages and personel too.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 17:25:07    825367

Also on what is you view on the way wages were benchmarked..... in general was pay "benchmarked" more on lenght of service and less on proformance would i be right in saying that.

Unions in general are opposed to proformance evalution as it is an goes against collective bargaining and tend to look for uniformed pay increase within the sector or company they operate in..... how dose this give workers the incentive to perform to their upmost and be rewarded for it..... do you think their should be more focus on pay increases and performance in my view not focusing on that is how wages have got out of hand. Some workers tend to sit back and do the minimun that's is expected (on all sectors) do you think they should be then rewarded for this i can garentee you that the fIrst thing that would be cut if more focus was on performance would be absenteeism and i think it would be one of the driving factors for reform also.

Some workers will exceed what is expected of them even if they are not rewarded for it but you have many that will not.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 17:50:13    825386

correction:

we took in shy of 50 billion and public sector wages made up 20 billion of that

20 billion for public sector wages was part of the 69 billion on day to day expenditure.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 17:52:50    825388

Hag,

How many times have i said it now. The lower paid workers do not earn anywhere near 50,000. I am there well over 36 years and my basic is less than 40 grand !! My take-home pay after tax, health, pension levies, worthless P.R.S.I. deductions etc leave it very poor. I do not qualify for education grants and have put 4 kids through with 1 to go on Credit Union loans. Now with impending property tax, water charges, rise in education costs, heating, gas, health insurance etc YOU want to cut my wages even more !! Cut all the costs first !!
Further wage cuts may come but i for one will then do just what is required as regards work, nothing at all like i do now, like obliging everyone and doing unpaid hours when taking kids on family visits, changing shifts at very short notice to oblige my employers, sports trips, prison visits etc that are not in my job description. In other words cuts will sour people and they will cost more in the long run. Then you will see sickness levels rise !!
You are a great man for comparing and benchmarking people with their equivalent in other sectors but still ignoring the differences i put to you.

I have no intention of trawling through Patrique's posts or even reading the links you put up as i can guess what they contain i.e. more slash and burn, but i know what my job was like many years ago when i started and only for the Unions it would still be as bad. Thank God i have my mortgage paid but i pity the young workers who have to deal with attitudes like those held by many I.B.E.C. minded individuals on here. Profit before people fools !!

You say you are back at college after losing two jobs. Maybe you are channelling your energies in the wrong direction. The "university of life" teaches you more about human virtues and empathy than those old books and links you post but you will find that out in time !! With lads like you in charge we would be back to the Oliver Twist days of "please sir, can i have some more" !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 30/11/2010 18:56:09    825439

Hag,

I also doubt that you are paying your own way in college if you are not working and the times you post on here would back that up !! Have you a rich relative ??

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 30/11/2010 18:59:26    825442

slasher:

The what averages show granted you may not be earning 50000 but a hell of a lot are and if you take a look at the cso stats that you disregarded you see where it is.... but saying that then unions are doing you no favour in your position they should be supporting people like you but unions use collective bargaining so everyone is effected, hence my point about unions also not supporting preformance appraisal as a means of monetary reward.

As for channeling my energies granted you are right there and that is why I have changed my focus my background was in I.T. before returning to college.....

"Further wage cuts may come but i for one will then do just what is required as regards work, nothing at all like i do now, like obliging everyone and doing unpaid hours when taking kids on family visits, changing shifts at very short notice to oblige my employers, sports trips, prison visits etc that are not in my job description."
Well maybe you should push your union reps to drive proformance appraisal cause if that's the case you'd do well.... I can appreciate the work you do but you seem to take may arguements against as a personal attack there are many within the sector that are not doing the same as you..... so less of the personal attacks on me aswell seems you arguement has started to go down that route now!!

from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take
So your still classing me as a sponge on society then yeah I'd perfer less of the personal jeers if you wouldn't mind obiously the university of life has taught you that. Try building a career for yourself being made redundate twice being back home with your retired parents (thank god i have them) in your 30's, I looked for what i could get got nothing and have tried to manage not looking for any credit for it but would appreciate the likes of you not classing me as a sponge!!
Back to education was pulled this year for masters students couldn't get it last year as i was doing a postgrad diploma, so contray to you belief i do work but it is at night starting at about 11 and finishing at about 4 a.m 3/4 nights if i can get it that's the nature of barwork night time is mainly when people do their drinkin, and i manged to get a bit of work during the summer which hopeing to have enough to see me through.
With the likes of you in charge we'd have to start learning german cause where will the money come from.. we'd be straight back to the imf/eu again.

Let do less of the personal stuff if you'd please slasher I've acknowleged that your position work and money wise may be different but averages across the sector do not support this as a whole and unions will support the majority!!

Also don't see what time spent on this site has to do with you do you want me to start clocking in and out.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 20:45:46    825537

"I do not qualify for education grants"

Not a pop at you slasher but at the wage you stated you are within the threshold for full maintainence grants.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 20:58:55    825544

I'll keep digging away it this until you respond to it.
"teaches you more about human virtues and empathy"

So would this human virtue and empathy sit right with saying someone who dosen't agree with you say adds no value to society and is a sponge which you clearly directed at me!!! Practise what you preach my good man...

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 30/11/2010 21:21:53    825571

Hag,

I have the solution for all our ills !!

I watched Kathleen O'Sullivan U.C.D. Economist on Vincent Browne last night when i came home from work. She stated that the massive sum of 1.2 TRILLION Euro was taken from the Irish economy in the last few years as per C.S.O. figures (now you're good at finding that kind of stuff and i'm not). Thats a staggering 12,000 BILLION !!
Much has been put into foreign banks and hidden there by Irish people !! Who are these people who claim to be Irish ? If they paid a small 1% on this here we would have enough for loads of bail-outs and we could give everyone a rise in wages !!

Also if we increased our Corporation Tax by 2.5% we could pay for several bail-outs and that tax would still only be 15% much cheaper than anywhere else in Europe and still very competitive. It would still be low enough to ensure these multi-nationals remained here according to this expert on economy !!

No need to add extra taxes or cuts at all !! The solution is here !!

Now i agree with you about the personal insults and apologise if i offended you as i should not have taken your suggestions of more cuts personally and i hit a bit below the belt !!

P.S. Where are the pubs that stay open till 4 am in Tipp ? I couldn't get a drink at 12 in a hotel in Nenagh earlier in the year !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/12/2010 19:04:36    826055

Hag,

Sorry i got the wrong surname, she is Kathleen Lynch. You can watch a replay of last night's V.B. show on the Vincent Browne website !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/12/2010 19:59:51    826102

Hag,

"Resident Holdings of Foreign Portfolio Securities" published by the C.S.O. on 31.12.2009 explains the whole thing. Its no wonder there is very little money in the country when the so-called "elite" have taken it all out !!!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/12/2010 20:05:32    826108

I don't really watch vincent browne than much althought he did a lot uncovering curruption in the past his seems a little biased in a few of his views he hates Fine Gael i would think due to personal reasons since they didn't accept him as a nomination for election before and seems to have leaned a bit more to the left now, also he's in trouble with the banks himself at the moment... but that's not answearing the question.

Yes that is a possible solution i think the u.k are looking down the road of offshore accounts to but if you do that your opening up a new can of worms and I think the elite people will oppose this as they have the offshore money. It's a matter of getting countries to hand over details of offshore accounts which many do not want to do as they'll be loosing money in their banks.... I think the u.k is trying to get an agreement with Luxemburg at the moment.

Also if you raised corporate Tax I think you have to continue to decrese private sector wages and i think this needs to be done anyways to help us remain competitive, so that should also have a spin off of lowering public sector wages. Not only wages reform needs to be driven also what do you make of the fingerprint machine arguement going on at the moment and has been going on since 2006 20 million machines sitting ideal and a tool to help against welfare fraud just because they want more money. You do plenty outside your job description without looking for more right and these people can't do that..... and of course the union cronies stick their ore in too.

Slasher I don't work in a pub I work in a nightclub you may be a bit old for that, also the cleaning up keeps us there till about 4.

I accept your appology I'm only trying to give an opinion here it's not directed directly at you.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/12/2010 11:52:19    826312

20 million machines

typo " 20 million worth of machines"

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/12/2010 13:24:10    826400

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 6526

826055 Hag,

I have the solution for all our ills !!

I watched Kathleen O'Sullivan U.C.D. Economist on Vincent Browne last night when i came home from work. She stated that the massive sum of 1.2 TRILLION Euro was taken from the Irish economy in the last few years as per C.S.O. figures (now you're good at finding that kind of stuff and i'm not). Thats a staggering 12,000 BILLION !!
Much has been put into foreign banks and hidden there by Irish people !! Who are these people who claim to be Irish ? If they paid a small 1% on this here we would have enough for loads of bail-outs and we could give everyone a rise in wages !!

Slasher

A few points.

Firstly, none of this represents cash sitting in banks. It's funds that have been invested in equities, bonds and other instruments. Read the document that you posted a link to. God only knows what sort of money is hiding in offshore bank accounts, you can guarantee people won't be declaring it for CSO surveys.

Secondly, 1.2 trillion is 1,200 billion, not 12,000 billion (still a staggering amount, but only 10% of what you are claiming it is).

Thirdly, there is nothing to indicate if the money invested in foreign securities was Irish generated to begin with. For example, the majority of U2's monies are generated in the UK and US. If they then put this money into US investments then that's not money leaving Ireland. There's nothing in the report that suggests how much of this actually was Irish generated to begin with. All the report says is that it's owned by Irish people.

Fourthly, nearly half of the foreign securities are UK or US. These are hardly tax havens where people try to hide money.

Finally, any of this money that is Irish generated will have been taxed already when the people earned it. Once the money has been taxed people are entitled to do what they want with it. When there's people like Jack O'Connor advocating double taxation on those who have already paid income tax on their earnings then I can't say I blame them for getting their money out of the country.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 02/12/2010 15:25:03    826511

black&white:

Your the financial whiz here but it's hard to know but from what you are saying would a very small amout of that be standard deposit accounts.... I would think it would be next to impossible to tax "income" made on securites etc..... and a lot would be the likes of pension investments right? The financial markets are a mystery to me at the best of times all i know is that the main reason we got a bailout is that the rest of europe is so exposed by the level of debt in irish banks from loans they gave to irish banks anglo's balance sheets over the last few years show that and that was only the stuff they were declaring.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/12/2010 17:40:32    826656

black&white:

Sorry another question for you would these people be only paying DIRT on only money held in ireland and also if money is held in foreign banks would they be taxed (DIRT equilivant) in those countries or would they be exempt??

I understand where slasher is comming from but you can really tax irish people holding money in other banks and on the flip side are foreign companies/people that hold money in irish banks taxed??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 02/12/2010 18:08:28    826688

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 6532

Yes Cavan Slasher the wage you stipulated is well under the threshold for a maintenance grant. So what are you really earning you have been caught out there that's for sure. If you are earning over 50,000 (Which I think you are) the you dont deserve the maintenance grant. I dont even earn €50,000 and my work is highly technical and specialised.

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 02/12/2010 18:45:49    826715

Paddyogall,

Definitely not earning that !! I was told by the V.E.C. that i am not eligible but i am going back to them again armed with that information. Still paying Credit Union for last lad !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 02/12/2010 18:58:06    826733