"I would say sickness is higher where injuries at work are caused by the dangers to frontline staff"

Wonce again you skip around it I think you were pointing out that the high numbers of absenteeism has to do with front line staff..... look at the figure think it proves that the majority of absenteeism isn't in front line staff.... office workers are the highest absenteeism rates!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 27/11/2010 18:10:05    823838

Hag,

What are you on about now ? I'm skipping around nothing. Try reading the posts correctly and cut out your anti Public Sector views for a moment. I work in the Frontline and i have explained why i think our members might have a slightly higher sickness record than average workers. I know nothing about the clerical staff but if they have too high a sickness level they should be taken to task !! I also believe that there are no angels in some Private Sector areas too as i have been told of many instances of skiving in it !! I know of lads going out to play golf and getting paid for it !! Shocking practices in some areas !!

I also said that i do not like people going sick if there is nothing wrong with them. I don't do it and i believe that its tempting fate !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 27/11/2010 18:20:48    823842

"I would say sickness is higher where injuries at work are caused by the dangers to frontline staff like, garda (attacked or injured on duty)i, nurses"

For the last time you made a point that sickness would be higher in the public sector becuase of frontline injuries.... well I have given you the facts and that dose not prove your point..... Your point again is given on what you think can you back it up with concrete facts?? Many of frontline line services have lower absenteeism rates than other parts of the sector.

"I also believe that there are no angels in some Private Sector areas too as i have been told of many instances of skiving in it !!"

The thing is in this climate these lads get caught out.... but in fairness it could be worse they could be going playing golf abroad and charging the tax payer for it..... remember the FAS lads??

Also did I ever say their are angels in the private sector??? And also you accused me of public sector bias well it seems you suffer from a bit of a private sector bias..... I remember the start of our debate many months ago now.... you lead with the arguement that the banks caused this which is true so reasoned that then it was all the private sectors fault.... well sorry boss everyone in the private sector dosen't work in banks and these banks are regulated by representives from private sector, public sector and even the unions..... regulation was the big problem here.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/11/2010 16:15:30    824032

Hag,

My posts are not being put on the board.



I am glad you agree with me regarding sickness in the Private Sector and about some of them playing golf and going "absent on the sly and that its not only in the Public Sector like Fas that this occurs !! I have already said what should be done with shirkers regardless of which sector they work with. Do you think unemployed people have a higher or lower sickness rate than those working ? I am sure you have figures for that too. Should unemployed people qualify for dole if they are sick or should student grants stop if they are sick ? Don't be too hard on them now !!

You accuse me of having a bias against the Private Sector like yours against the Public Sector and all i can put that down to is the fact that i work there for over 30 years unlike the 3 months that you spent dealing with one particular part of it !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/11/2010 18:56:07    824131

Cavan_Slasher:

"I am glad you agree with me regarding sickness in the Private Sector"

No sorry i don't with you you claim private sector are the skivers I've given you the data to show absenteeism in the public sector is twice the level of that of the private and it is not caused by injuries to frontline staff to the degree you claim.... most are taken by civil service.

Interesting point maybe they should I know from being on the dole that if you miss a siging date threw sickness or take a holiday you don't get money..... also with the dole I think it should be slashed to represent the fall in wages also..... you can live on 194 euro a week even afford to go for a few pints which is a luxury in my view and if you are unemployed you shouldn't have luxury's you should have enough to meet you basic needs.

"Public Sector and all i can put that down to is the fact that i work there for over 30 years" So dose that mean what happens in you line of work mirror all over the public sector you've used personal expireances to back up your point which is generalisation.... do you not agree.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/11/2010 19:42:01    824159

Hag,

Now generalising is YOUR thing !! After having spent the massive period of 3 months dealing with a particular part of the service you judged the entire Public Sector !!

You are still not reading the posts correctly. I called anyone in either sector skivers if they have too high a rate of sickness, i also repeated this but you chose to ignore it again !!

I am a Frontline worker and have no sickness as i have also said several times and if people were not paid for sick leave in rither sector then there would be less !!

I will always stand up for decency and defend the honest people i work with against attacks especially from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take !!!!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/11/2010 20:19:05    824189

I worked on the front line of a dole office for a few years and witnessed many colleagues, including big 6ft fellas, turned into nervous wrecks by the constant abuse, threats, attacks and intimidation they faced from the public. If you are constantly working in this type of negative working environment 8 hours a day 5 days a week it obviously rubs off in a bad way on your mental and physical well being. When I first worked in one of these offices my sister gave me a lift one day and she is a high flyer in the private sector insurance industry. While she was waiting on me she sat and observed what the staff had to put up with from the public and said though she was used to abuse in her job she had NEVER seen anything like this and wouldn't do it for a fortune. Those who say that public servants are lazy, workshy and overpaid should spend a week or two in one of these dole offices to see how brave they are. I guarantee most of them wouldn't last out a day so while yes some do swing the lead believe me many don't. In my own trade union work I witnessed the high number of people working in these places who suffered from severe mental health issues, alcohol and prescription drug dependency and other physical health ailments brought on by their own working environment.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9837 - 28/11/2010 21:09:02    824245

Slasher:

I've given reports facts and figures to back up my point you use your own personal expireances and take them as the norm..... for example I worked in the private sector 7 years and in the space of time took 3 sick days going by the average of 8 days a year for private sector i should have taken 56!! The point I making is that there are squivers in the private sector there are genuine sickness too but do you think it's right that there is vastly higher sick days in the public sector in the civil service and it is not caused by injury frontline as you point out.

Also you started this arguement with sweeping generlaisations that the private sector people caused this recession so should take the hit.... that is not true and I find insulting also you fail to acknowlege in the terms of wage cuts the 100's of thousands make redundant, also you say that the public sector is better eduacted than the private sector i think this is generalising aswell..... in relation to equivilant positions are they more eduacted.

Also you claim that the private sector is paid better than the public sector this is also not true on average public sector are paid higher in relation to similar positions in the public sector and i given you the facts on that.... because you yourself would get paid higher in the private sector for your position dose not mean it's that way in every case....

I'm sorry slasher you the generalisation specialist here..... I've pointed out what i see wrong in the public sector so why with a highly eduacted workforce are these not rectified and how come they way processes are carried are not improved by this eduacted workforce!!

These are also evident private sector but much worse in the public sector on average.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/11/2010 21:18:39    824254

I will always stand up for decency and defend the honest people i work with against attacks especially from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take !!!!

So you are defending them from what you class as "attacks" from me on this forum then..... so you class me as a person that contributes nothing to the running of the country and only take (in your words) sorry i find that very insulting how dare you I have worked for years I've paid tax i back putting myself threw college now and get nothing in handouts...... your just being eliteist now just because I'm not in the public sector and not frontline staff i contribute nothing to society right???

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/11/2010 21:32:48    824265

Ulsterman:

Yes that dose happen in limited circumstances I've seen when i was on the dole..... but again it happens on a small scale, it can be part of the job, look at hotel staff barstaff retail staff as an example they have to deal with this too without the added protection of a plastic screen in front of them!!!! I've worked in hotels and bars before and have seen worse intimidation and abuse!!

who suffered from severe mental health issues, alcohol and prescription drug dependency and other physical health ailments brought on by their own working environment.
How is that any different from other jobs..... there are pressure jobs in both sectors... can you show study's of facts on this on how it's any worse in some positions compared to others!!

My argue is that there are parts of the sector that need to be reformed and measures of wages, absenteeism and head counts and works practises need to be looked at as they are well above measures in other sectors!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 28/11/2010 21:44:15    824270

Hag,

I am defending my co-workers in Frontline jobs from attack as i already stated !!

Don't throw your toys out of the pram just because i took a little dig back at you. If you can give it then you have to be able to take it. If you worked in a Frontline job you would be used to it !!

If your attack was on Civil Servants rather than all the Public Sector then you should have stated that at the outset !!

I have seen my members spat at, punched, bitten and kicked over the years and i don't like people who don't even understand their job judging and ridiculing them. I speak from a position of authority and not from one of ignorance like many of the anti Public Sector brigade.
On the wages issue it is clear that for years the Public Sector did lag behind but had a built-in pension safeguard to compensate. Now you all want this ended because Private Sector wages have dropped, even though ours has too. Where i work people are expected to work weekends, nights, Christmas etc and while they might get allowances for that it does not beat being at home with your own family like a 9 to 5 worker but it is some compensation. However things like that too are thrown at workers as is overtime (remember that) even though many would prefer the ordinary days work !!

I have agreed with you on the sickness issue and stated twice that anyone milking that system should be made an example of regardless of which sector they were employed !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/11/2010 21:54:55    824279

Hag,

How can you say you have seen worse abuse in Hotels when you don;t know the level that Ulsterman was talking about ? Are you guessing ? Or is it a thing with you that nothing is as bad in the Public Sector as it is in the Private ? I think you are fixated with us !! You might need to see someone about that !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 28/11/2010 21:58:29    824282

No plastic screens H & G, they were taken away in the North 5 or 6 years ago while senior managers still remain behind 2,3 or 4 locked doors upstairs out of the way. The difference between these dole office workers and most others is that THEY have to beat the brunt of EVERY unfair policy change that governments make. It is they who have to tell the public face to face that their child benefit, pensions, Jobseekers, Disability has been slashed NOT politicians and it is they who take the physical and mental abuse. It is a one way ticket to a nervous breakdown; I have seen it happening and that should NEVER be part of anyone's working terms and conditions.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9837 - 28/11/2010 21:58:32    824283

Sorry slasher that is not a dig back that is an insult but if thats the way you want to take this arguement fair enough maybe it you grasping at straws!!

"from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take !!!!" Explain how i fall into this category!!

If your attack was on Civil Servants rather than all the Public Sector then you should have stated that at the outset !! not only civil servants but seems an area where there is the most scope for reform.

I have seen my members spat at, punched, bitten and kicked over the years and i don't like people who don't even understand their job judging and ridiculing them. I speak from a position of authority and not from one of ignorance like many of the anti Public Sector brigade.



who's judging them and i thought we were talkin about people working in dole offices in relation to what ulsterman has said.
How can you say you have seen worse abuse in Hotels when you don;t know the level that Ulsterman was talking about ? Are you guessing ?
Well going by what he said yes i am guessing and that what you have done quite a bit in arguements, If seen the physical abuse as well and been on the end of a bit of it so how do you know it's not worse you have people on alcahol and drugs at unsocialble hours.... how do you know are you guessing.

On the wages issue it is clear that for years the Public Sector did lag behind but had a built-in pension safeguard to compensate.

Can you please show me evidence of this as I've shown you evidence to the contrary that on average public sector workers wages were higher than private sector equilivants even before "benchmarking" and pensions aren't even a factor in "benchmarking".

Ulsterman:

Right for start you are talking about public servants in northern Ireland I am taling about public servants in the republic in my arguement..... remember public servants in the north can be on anything up to 50% less than their republic of ireland counter parts and that is one of the resons my arguements comes from managers can be even on twice as much...... if pay was "benchmarked" against pay in the public sector of other counties that might have been a better "benchmark".

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 29/11/2010 10:13:36    824322

Hag,

I'm not guessing at all because i have been there !!

You have been getting the hits in at the Public Sector on many threads and i was beginning to think you had a grudge and were holding a vendetta !! Did you ever apply to join and were refused ?

You are a great man for comparing and have even done so with Ulsterman but have you taken everything into consideration ? I doubt it !!
Once again if you give digs then expect to get some in return !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 29/11/2010 14:36:15    824515

Hags problem is he assumes the best out of the private sector and the worst out of the public sector. To be fair I'm guilty of the opposite but then again its not the private sector that is being attacked and scapegoated left right and centre.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12484 - 29/11/2010 14:59:08    824537

Breffni,

Correct and i am a bit the same as you. Hag seems to want everyone of us to be cut more than we have already had and will not be happy until nobody can pay for anything. He seems to wallow in misery !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 29/11/2010 15:10:48    824548

Cavan_Slasher:

You didn't answear my questions yet again....

What do you mean you have been there... you've worked in the same area for the last 30 years right how can you comment on the whole sector then..... I'm looking at data across the whole sector and drawing conclusions on that.

Slasher tell me what i havn't taken into consideration that means that some public servants in the republic get paid 50% more than the equilivant positions in the u.k.

I've backed up my view with data you do it with your own personal expireances and then lob in personal insults like the following "from people who contribute nothing to the running of the country but only take" again why have you classed me as that!!

Hags problem is he assumes the best out of the private sector and the worst out of the public sector.

My current line of study deals waste within business processes I've done projects in private sector companies and am awear of the waste there and am currently doing my thesis on another private sector company.... the difference is these companies have identified that there is waste and are working to elimate them to the best of their ability in order to remain competitive and remain in business a strong tool in doing this is benchmarking (mainly best practise) in the proper sense which raising wages rarely comes into yet it was the key area in the public sector "benchmarking".

If I've got it tolally wrong tell me ways in which the public sector is improving and driving reform and I don't mean just working harder as that will raise your costs too I mean working smarter (seen as ye are the most eduacated sector right??)...... and slasher your own personal expirences yet again will not encompass the whole public sector.

Slahers problem is that he just can't take the critism of the public sector!!
In past post on this forum I admitted that my wages were too high to be sustainable and yet similar workers in the public sector would have been on higher yet it's not justified to take cuts now??

Yet slasher seems eliteist in his view's public sector didn't case it so they should be cut well the vast majority of the private sector didn't cause it either it was caused by lack of regulation in my view which many private and public sector workers had a hand in. And saying then accusing me for contributing noting to society and and only taking.... what the hell is that about so is everyone in the private sector a drain on society.... remember it's their tax money that pays your wages too!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 29/11/2010 17:25:35    824672

p.s.

Their still hasn't been any salary cuts as the croke park agreement hasn't been pushed throught yet right??..... you said you were happy the IMF were involved well just watch them slice and dice the public sector like they'll do to the banking sector (which grew too big due poor regulation and cheap credit).

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 29/11/2010 17:31:39    824681

Hag,

Another long post has been refused for some reason !!

1. I have worked in several areas of the Public Sector but in the care area with children for the last number of years so i do know about other areas !! I have told you before that there are far too many administrators and hangers-on !!
2. Most Public Sector wages have had huge cuts in wages, as much as 17% already !!

3. Public Sector did lag behind Private sector wages years ago 1970's into 80's !! Thats why pensions were guaranteed !! No details on computer but i will try Union rep !!
4. Only for the Unions we would still be way behind, thats why they were needed then and still needed i.m.o. !!
5. Public Sector wages in N. Ireland are lower but not 50% and in N.Ireland you ave free Healthcare, cheaper foods, alcohol, public transport, cars etc !!
6. Wage cuts should only come if the cost of living drops too which contrary to media reports is not. gas, heating oil, childcare, mortgages etc should be taken into account and cut accordingly prior to wages.!!!

Regarding your little "p.s." bit Will you be happy if wages are cut again and will you stop crying then ?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 29/11/2010 20:06:05    824832