Omar,

People take degrees to improve the service they give !! They already have a degree when teaching but may take another to compliment it !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/11/2010 12:12:57    821339

23/11/2010 10:58:16
Kilanerinfooty
County: Wexford
Posts: 175

821293 Derryman
In order for teachers to take the masters allowance they must forego their degree allowance. This means the actual rise in pay €606 per annum before tax etc. so about €6 per week in the hand. It is not for the money that public servants upskill. My wife is a teacher with a masters in educational management which cost us €6000 for her to get.
These half cocked examples contribute nothing to the debate.
_____________
The website of the TUI states the following
ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS
wef 1/1/10

1. (a) (i) H. Dip in Ed. (Pass) €591
(ii) Higher Froebel Cert. €591
(b) (i) H. Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons) €1,236
(ii) Árd Teastas Gaeilge €1,236
(c) Primary Degree (Pass) €1,842
(d) Masters Degree by thesis
or exam (Pass) €4,918
(e) Primary Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €4,918
(f) Masters Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €5,496
(g) Doctors Degree €6,140


A masters either €5,496 or €4,918
I disagree that my example is half cocked

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 12:13:31    821340

So effectively Omar you are proposing to increase profits for the small minority of people who own businesses by 25%? And this is a good idea for what reason? Just asking seen as the rest of us will be living in misery. Not that I begrudge the poor craythurs of course. God knows it's not easy being an Irish entrpeneur what with the sales of breakfast rolls and overpriced pints and hotel beds down so much ;-)

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 23/11/2010 12:14:23    821343

Omar,

Did you take in the cost of travelling, maybe an overnight etc ?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/11/2010 12:19:24    821350

23/11/2010 12:11:22
paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 3195

What about the other Electricity supply and Generators in Ireland? will they lower it also? last time I checked the ESB only generated 40% of the electricity in the republic of Ireland. Lower the price of Gas? okay we'll ask the commodity traders in ICE etc to be ultra nice to us and sell it to us for 25% less and maybe forget about the transportation costs to this little Island at the edge of western Europe and at the very end of a complicated Network structure. Maybe the owners of the limited inter connectors to this Island will forget about payment for a year or two while the economy gets back on track.

The worst thing is a while ago you were chief cheerleader for a man that has been found to be fully complicit in the corruption and incompetence that has us in the position we are in at the moment.
______________________
Our cost of electricty is 20% higher than the European average and is the second highest in Europe - If one operator reduces prices by 20%/25% I cant say what the others will do but I'd struggle to see why they wouldn't have to follow - free market forces and all that.

My post is about what my thoughts are on economic actions that need to be taken. As regards any comments I have made about any individual - I fully support the concept that everyone needs to be fully accountable for their actions to the full extent of the law, but I struggle to see how this impacts on my point - We have semi state bodies where the average salary cost is almots €100k a head.

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 12:22:54    821355

23/11/2010 12:14:23
hurlingdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 2726

821343 So effectively Omar you are proposing to increase profits for the small minority of people who own businesses by 25%? And this is a good idea for what reason? Just asking seen as the rest of us will be living in misery. Not that I begrudge the poor craythurs of course. God knows it's not easy being an Irish entrpeneur what with the sales of breakfast rolls and overpriced pints and hotel beds down so much ;-)
___________

The objective is to reduce prices of services and goods by 25% also
Free maket forces should mean that profits reduce to a fair return on capital
- We then can afford to buy more which increases demand and creates jobs.

I fully concede that the point is theoretical - Paddyogall is right for e.g we cannot reduce the cost of oil by 25% because we don't have any
But I'm trying to make a point at a broad level - Its the substance of the concept - If you want to argue any one of the points above there is a clear flaw
but happy to debate on the broader concept

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 12:27:52    821359

23/11/2010 12:11:22
paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 3195

The worst thing is a while ago you were chief cheerleader for a man that has been found to be fully complicit in the corruption and incompetence that has us in the position we are in at the moment.

_________________

Is your solution to every argument to revisit a non relevant debate that is nearly a year old - Time moves on and I'm sure we have all taken a position in an argument that you would change with the benefit of reflection.

I recall you coming on here suggesting that there was a killing to be made in buying Irish bonds when yields were at 4%- They are now at 8.11%
which means you would have lost 40% on a ten year position, but I don't see the relevance of including this in every argument as a means of trying to suggest you are not entitled to an opinion


Debate the post not the poster

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 12:40:41    821364

Our cost of electricty is 20% higher than the European average and is the second highest in Europe - If one operator reduces prices by 20%/25% I cant say what the others will do but I'd struggle to see why they wouldn't have to follow - free market forces and all that.

My post is about what my thoughts are on economic actions that need to be taken. As regards any comments I have made about any individual - I fully support the concept that everyone needs to be fully accountable for their actions to the full extent of the law, but I struggle to see how this impacts on my point - We have semi state bodies where the average salary cost is almots €100k a head.

If you even have a small look at the issues you'll see why electricity prices are so high. Over 55% of Ireland's electricity comes from natural gas. The E.U average is 22%. Coal Oil and Gas account for 81% of electricity generation in Ireland, while the E.U average is 43%. Even the suppliers such as airtricty and BGE are operating at a loss while under cutting ESB.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/EPSSU_Publications/Understanding_Electricity_and_Gas_Prices_in_Ireland.pdf

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 23/11/2010 12:44:00    821366

In my opinion the first salaries that should be cut are the politicians. Token gestures of 5% and 10% cuts are not enough. The time has come for TDs salaries to be capped at 40,000 a year. Expenses also need to be severely scrutinised and maybe scrapped.

My reason for this is simple, this drastic action is the only way the general public will begin to believe in our political system. We do need a belief in our political system if we are to move forward as every new cut and tax is going to ferociously opposed by the public unless the politicians take a severe hit first.

The second reason for this severe hit is that I believe if politicians are on that type of salary they will not stand idly by as top civil servants cream in huge over inflated salaries. For example two days before Mary Harney announced they were looking for 5,000 voluntary redundancies in the HSE, I saw an advert in the Irish times for the position of a "Home Operations Manager" (some administrative job along those lines) with a salary of 180,000 euro. This is madness. This is matched by chief executives of the VECs on 140,000. Chief Executive of HSE, ESB and Dublin Airport on 250,000, 750,000 and 500,000. In Government Departments Higher Executive officers are on 60,000-80,000 euro, matrons of hospitals likewise. Superintendant Gardai on 70,000 euro. Principals of schools on 50,000-60,000 euro. John Delaney of the FAI on 400,000. (These figures are all off the top of my head and I'm sure someone will correct me, but my point is that the top earners in this country have to take the big hit first)

Now they are proposing that the minimum wage should be cut. You have to wonder are we actually mad.

I see one of the few places they are recruiting is the Army, because over the next few months there is going to be absolute chaos, Nobody is going to stand for this anymore.

Hoscarano (Laois) - Posts: 56 - 23/11/2010 13:16:17    821390

23/11/2010 12:44:00
paddyogall
County: Mayo
Posts: 3199

821366 If you even have a small look at the issues you'll see why electricity prices are so high. Over 55% of Ireland's electricity comes from natural gas. The E.U average is 22%. Coal Oil and Gas account for 81% of electricity generation in Ireland, while the E.U average is 43%. Even the suppliers such as airtricty and BGE are operating at a loss while under cutting ESB.

_______________
1. One of the authors is an "OGALL" so I would question objectivity
2. There is no Exec Summary - I have the attention span of a goldfish
3. The main trust of my argument is the need to deflate costs and improve competition - I concede that is not achievable where it is outside of our control - Oil & gas prices being the best example but would you say that the useage and cost base is as effecient as it can be - ESB headcount, salaries - useage in the conversion process, old power stations

4. Inclusion of tax clearly has an impact on the ranking for residential - we come out mid-table on commercial which is not something I was aware
4. Genuine question - I still feel there is cost leakage in the market but the report suggests that much of the problem is mix. I assume That France etc has a low cost mix due to Nueclar power so

1) should we stay as is
2) should we import more power rather than fuel
3. should we invest in Neuclar and stimulate the construction sector while we are at it - If we don't have the money for PPP with a multinational

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 14:35:14    821437

Well this is what I would do.

Pro's
1. Build further interconnected to Wales and France. Some of these are already being planned.
2. Start the planning for Nuclear Energy.
3. Remove the REFIT tariff on renewable energy, the industry views this as a money making racket.
4. Decommission Older plants. Replace them with ultra efficent OCGT's that can run on Gas or Oil.
5. Privatise the ESB. Too many staff in comparison to other Power Generation departments such as BGE, Tynagh, Endessa and Veridian.
6. Get rid of Peat burning plants. There bidding too high into the SEM.

Cons
1. Tramission losses would be high especially on Ireland to France route. Could be a deal breaker.
2. Current technology means that these plants are in the region of 2000mw and above. The Irish base load is around 4000MW's now since the economic crash. Plants this big would destabilise the market and wouldnt incentivise other generators into the market. When smaller nuclear facilities become available such as there is in conventional Irish generation which are in the region of 300-400mw. This technology will be available within a decade.
3. REFIT is around 50-70mwh for wind farms, however if we want to exploit our greatest renewable assets which is wave power we would need to retain a refit on that. It is currently €220 per mwh for wave power. The technology needs time to develop. Current technology could provide 75% of Irelands power needs (The Island of Ireland) how ever it is too expensive and unreliable at the moment.
4. No cons. Older plants are waiting online as peaker plants because they make money from capacity payments. They bid higher into the SEM because of their inefficiencies.
5. No cons.
6. No cons. The boilers at the peat burning stations in Ireland are a joke.

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 23/11/2010 15:39:39    821476

The IMF have said that wages need to be cut- when can i impliment this on my staff? paying 8.65 for a cleaner - god bless the IMF for sorting out that racket!!

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 23/11/2010 16:52:15    821550

liathroidboy
County: Mayo
Posts: 568

821550 The IMF have said that wages need to be cut
______________________________________________________________________

Well let's hope they start at the top... as I said we've some of the highest paid politicians in the world.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 23/11/2010 17:05:25    821570

liathroidboy
County: Mayo
Posts: 574

821550 The IMF have said that wages need to be cut- when can i impliment this on my staff? paying 8.65 for a cleaner - god bless the IMF for sorting out that racket!!

But sure you are a cleaner! You know that in India you would be a member of the lowest caste? Even wealthy waste disposal experts in India are considered to be the lowest of the low. Have a nice day ;-)

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 24/11/2010 09:37:30    821879

Omar.d
You didn't read the post. The benefit of a masters is not that sum as you lose your degree allowance to claim the masters allowance.
The degree allowance came into being as in yesteryear a lot of teachers didn't have degrees (some of these are still teaching too I believe). I agree it should have been amalgamated into a flattened payscale years ago. This system of allowances is ridiculous and offers no transparency.

Kilanerinfooty (Wexford) - Posts: 200 - 24/11/2010 12:48:08    821984

24/11/2010 12:48:08
Kilanerinfooty
County: Wexford
Posts: 176

821984 Omar.d
You didn't read the post. The benefit of a masters is not that sum as you lose your degree allowance to claim the masters allowance.
The degree allowance came into being as in yesteryear a lot of teachers didn't have degrees (some of these are still teaching too I believe). I agree it should have been amalgamated into a flattened payscale years ago. This system of allowances is ridiculous and offers no transparency.
___________

Being honest I did read your post however I decided to ignore your point and represent the facts that I had to hand to support my argument.
I'm thinking of a career in polictics so am trying to get a bit of practice in

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 24/11/2010 13:05:35    821992

Cavan_Slasher:

So you see nothing wrong with the 80 million overtime bill for the gardai then.... granted they do a good job but it seems that the provision of overtime in that department isn't regulated and there could be better use made of resources.

omaghredhand:
No that dosen't include pension either so the public sector wage should be adjusted up in my view.... also i said that even when similar jobs are compared in public and private sector on average public sector wages are higher too.... granted there will be exceptions when you and slasher tend focus on but the average show that public sector are paid higher..... in the last few months i've had jobs in the private sector and public sector.... a labouring job paid a bit more than an admin job i had in a public sector department and i'm currently working part time on minimum wage getting myself threw college and the public sector job in my view was the easiest and for that fact the most boring.... wanted to do things a different way but was told no that's the way we've always done it!!

The arguement is also made that the public sector is more educated well i made the arguement that these eduacted people are not used properly, educated people should drive no work processes and practises in essence reform to become more innovative but these dose not seem to be the case in the the qualificates they gain seem to be trying to get more pay as it can be hard to step up the ladder in the public sector due to low turnover and a job for life.... might be the reason for low motivation even in the good times and the higher number of sick days taken by public sector staff??

Studies have shown that low motivation is one of the main reasons for staff absence!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 24/11/2010 15:42:19    822108

Omar.d
County: Cavan
Posts: 784
___________

Being honest I did read your post however I decided to ignore your point and represent the facts that I had to hand to support my argument.
I'm thinking of a career in polictics so am trying to get a bit of practice in

Just a bit of advice if you're going to make it in politics.

Never admit that you've manipulated the figures to support your claim. Just brazen it out!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13838 - 24/11/2010 18:26:30    822233

Hag & Cheese,

I would have no overtime for Garda or anyone else for that matter !! As already said if you have a decent basic pay you should not need overtime. That is exactly why Garda wages were poor but propped up with overtime. I always refuse to work overtime in my job too. A ban on overtime in the Garda would be the last thing the Government would want for obvious reasons and this is something that would hurt the Government if their Representative Body ever use it as a weapon !! If they just refused to use their personal mobile phones their job would fall down !!
I am told by my brother who works in a well known computer manufacturing company of lads disappearing from their desks to go for a few hours kip in the store room. This would never happen in the Public Sector as you have to be at your desk and logged in all the time. Wastage here too methinks !! Bonuses and Christmas, Holiday pay also which does not happen in the Public Sector either and no weekend work or nights which is compulsory either !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 24/11/2010 19:08:13    822267

I cut all wages by €1 per hour this morning - its time to get competitive again and more importantly to get my profits back to 2007 levels. The beauty about 6 month contracts is people get their prespectives in order. I hope all wise business people are doing likewise- we truly have turned a corner.

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 25/11/2010 11:18:07    822486