Hag,

I know many many lads working in factories who would not even have a Junior Cert and you know that too !!

Older workers in the Public Service only needed a Leaving Cert as already stated but many of us got diplomas and degrees in our own time afterwards and we paid our own way too.

As stated before many times, the pension was what attracted many people into the Public Sector in the first place !! Wages there were much lower years ago. Contributions towards pensions are paid too, maybe not as much as a Private Sector worker would pay but thats the way it was then !!

As i told you before i am went on a 3 day week and i also work 1 day in the Private Sector and get more. I have an offer to work 3 days in the Private Sector job and i am seriously thinking of taking it. I would also be due a lump sum and a pension from Public sector as well. Its not really the money at all as i like the job i do but sometimes i get too attached to the clients i work with and allow unfortunate situations effect me more than i should and the bureaucracy in the H.S.E. is seriously getting to me ( as we have spoken about before ) !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/11/2010 19:09:05    821028

Hag,

As regards overtime, i am of the belief that if you need to work overtime to survive then the job is letting you down. I would never work overtime !! I am sure many do and some work too much of it and will suffer later on in life for their greed because it is greed !! Those Garda members you mention in Mayo would be an exception i believe. Many in the Private Sector work overtime too i am sure and they hardly do it for nothing !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/11/2010 19:14:33    821034

Hag,

You are having a laugh ?? Only one Commissioner i am afraid !!
Many areas with no overtime at all. Overtime ruins jobs, if you have not a good basic pay and have to rely on overtime then the job is no good !!
Gardai have to work unsocial hours to get a basic pay i.e. weekends when most sporting events are on and nights when young people should be enjoying themselves. Plus night work shortens your life as i said on another recent thread.

Anyone who gets a good wage for working nights deserves it but the garda don't get a good one imo !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/11/2010 20:00:25    821085

HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 3830

820840 Recent ersi survey:

"Workers in the private sector earned an average of €678 weekly, compared to €792 for those in the public sector and €809 for those in commercial semi-state organisations."


Hag, does that not include pension contributions as well? Along with this, you cannot dismiss the numerous minimum wage jobs that there are in the private sector like you have done. This undoubtedly reduces the average for private sector. With regard to minimum wage jobs in the public sector, messengers etc I'm sure are on minimum wage. I don't think that it is credible to compare, cleaners, barstaff, shelf stackers etc to job advisers, welfare officers, gardai, nurses, firemen etc, which in essence this does. I have an example for you. My windowcleaner (£5 for 15 mins work by the way) was telling me that his son works in ASDA at night and is only 9-10 weeks into the job. His take home pay was £1200 or E1500, for stacking shelves? I work in the public sector, have approx 40 staff and take home £1500-1600 basic. I try not to do overtime as I enjoy my weekends and I get a few pound travelling expenses, but had to buy a new(er) car to take the job. I'm nearly thinking of applying for ASDA part time

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 22/11/2010 20:18:40    821102

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 6395

820954 Hag,

Many people in the Private Sector are very poorly educated unlike those in the Public Sector who at least have Leaving Certs (many have much higher) !! Do you think we should " un-educate " ourselves too ?

Now i am not running down these people but many are ordinary factory workers with little education but do you think they should earn the same as someone with a degree or even a diploma ?

I can not believe I am reading this elitist propaganda. Every friday I watch the most important member of society come to my door and make my environment safe for me and my children to live in. I would put it to you that the average garbage collector does more for the propagation of civilisation than the the most educated brain surgeon in the world.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 22/11/2010 20:30:52    821122

Yes Derryman but can your binman do brain surgery 'cos a brain surgeon can empty bins ??

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/11/2010 20:37:43    821132

22/11/2010 20:30:52
derryman
County: Derry
Posts: 1705


I can not believe I am reading this elitist propaganda. Every friday I watch the most important member of society come to my door and make my environment safe for me and my children to live in. I would put it to you that the average garbage collector does more for the propagation of civilisation than the the most educated brain surgeon in the world.

True - Much of the third level educational qualifcations in the CS are earned afterwards - because you get supported in terms of time and money to do so.
Also once you get the degree it means a pay - increment even though its not relevant to the task at hand.
teachers receive an extra 5k pa if they have a masters

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 22/11/2010 20:38:59    821135

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 6398

821132 Yes Derryman but can your binman do brain surgery 'cos a brain surgeon can empty bins ??

Wrong Question! It should be Would brain surgeons empty Bins. Emptying bins is actually a greater service which all society benefits from.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 22/11/2010 20:56:18    821164

Have ye learnt NOTHING?????????????????


Dear God in heaven, YOU CANNOT CUT YOUR WAY OUT OF A RECESSION, IT CAUSES A DOUBLE DIP RECESSION, AS HAS JUST BEEN PROVED IN..............IRELAND.

You spend your way out, everyone knows that and everyone told the politicians in the south that. Unfortunately they ignored that advice for fear of offending the mega rich.

Too late now.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 22/11/2010 21:07:08    821171

Derryman,

Not if you have a brain injury its not !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/11/2010 21:24:34    821194

Cavan slasher
Individuals have brain surgery. Societies have garbage.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 22/11/2010 21:44:39    821211

Derryman,

A person with a brain injury is liable to dump your garbage in your garden !! You need to get it fixed !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 22/11/2010 21:48:38    821220

patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 10393

821171 Have ye learnt NOTHING?????????????????


Dear God in heaven, YOU CANNOT CUT YOUR WAY OUT OF A RECESSION, IT CAUSES A DOUBLE DIP RECESSION, AS HAS JUST BEEN PROVED IN..............IRELAND.

You spend your way out, everyone knows that and everyone told the politicians in the south that. Unfortunately they ignored that advice for fear of offending the mega rich.

Too late now.

I agree but you can spend and tax your way out which is exactly what Sinn Fein policies show. Spend on public services and Tax the rich

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 22/11/2010 21:49:47    821222

Derryman
In order for teachers to take the masters allowance they must forego their degree allowance. This means the actual rise in pay €606 per annum before tax etc. so about €6 per week in the hand. It is not for the money that public servants upskill. My wife is a teacher with a masters in educational management which cost us €6000 for her to get.
These half cocked examples contribute nothing to the debate.

Kilanerinfooty (Wexford) - Posts: 200 - 23/11/2010 10:58:16    821293

22/11/2010 21:07:08
patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 10393

821171 Have ye learnt NOTHING?????????????????

Dear God in heaven, YOU CANNOT CUT YOUR WAY OUT OF A RECESSION, IT CAUSES A DOUBLE DIP RECESSION, AS HAS JUST BEEN PROVED IN..............IRELAND.
You spend your way out, everyone knows that and everyone told the politicians in the south that. Unfortunately they ignored that advice for fear of offending the mega rich.
Too late now.
______________________________
We spend €50bn a year
Tax take is €30 bn a year

this is excluding the cost of the bank bailout and interest on bail outs etc

The reason for the €50bn is because we decided to increase spending(public sector pay and Wlefare) to match the tax income that we had in 2006 and 2007 - €50bn.
We will never again have €50bn a year in tax - it came from constuction related activity(CGT, PAYE and PRSI for construction wages/VAT on materials/ VAT on teh fags that the builders smoked etc etc, Corporation tax on the banks profit) Welfare costs have gone up because the builders have no jobs

- We were building 100,000 houses a year - Over ten years that is enough houses for an additional 4.2m people if you use the 2.2 children equation
To put this in perspective GB builds 250,000 houses a year despite having 15 times the population so we should have been building 20,000 houses a year

In effect it was s bubble/bonanza/once off/klondike

Your observation is correct - cut taxes eventually gets the economy back on track - but only if it is possible to get back to the place you started
This is what the Americans are doing -They have two many houses aswell but it is not a major part of the economy
We cannot get back to where we were so either spending or taxes need to change.
Cutting taxes works if we had a 10% gap or 20% gap.
We cannot spend our way out of this unless we all start buying houses again - So once you can point out 260,00 people a year that have money than they need we can start buying houses (we need to clear a 160,000 backlog first)

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 11:21:24    821306

Let me ask a few questions regarding pay cuts :-

1. If Public Sector wages are cut again does anyone seriously think that Private Sector wages will not be ?

2. If wages are cut people will have less disposable income to spend in shops. Will there be even more businesses closing leading to even more unemployment and more on dole ?

3. If all our taxes etc go to financing I.M.F. loads, banks etc then where is the injection needed to encourage new jobs ?

4. If people are already struggling to pay mortgages and are to suffer yet another cut, will a N.A.M.A. 2 be needed to help them ?

5. If people cannot afford to pay higher taxes, water charges, increased education fees, property tax, increased P.A.Y.E. then whats going to happen to them ?

6. What happens if people just refuse to comply with property tax etc as the jails are already overflowing ?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 23/11/2010 11:35:56    821313

Any international economist (except patrique) will say that only out for Ireland is to improve its economy is to improve its competiveness which generates jobs and tax revenue.
The traditional way of doing this when a country was knackered is to devalue the currency (UK did this when they left the ERM)
We are in the Euro so can't do this.

so

1) leave the Euro -
2) Do a theoretical devaluation

The way to do this is to make eveything 25% cheaper - The way to do this is

1) cut min wage by 25%
2) cut welfare by more than the above to incentivise people to work
3) Write down a portion of mortgage debt to relfect the above for people that cannot afford current mortgages
4) rents should come down because the debt has reduced
4) Reduce ESB gas and phone costs and force semi states to become more effecient
5) reduce Public sector oay by 25%
6) reduce all private sector pay by 25% - this will happen through market forces - ie min wage is cut and more people will opt for private sector work which means supply and demand reduces salaries

Nobody is worse off you just have 25% less money coming in but everthing costs 25% less

When all of the above is achieved we then have situation where economic activity increases because our exports are more competive because operating costs reduce. Then tax revenue increases - Then you cut taxes - people are now actually better off and spend more which creates jobs and increases tax revenue - which
means we can cuttaxes - people are now actually better off and spend more which creates jobs and increases tax revenue ..... etc etc

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 11:36:24    821314

Sorry Derryman that post was meant for Omar.d

Kilanerinfooty (Wexford) - Posts: 200 - 23/11/2010 11:52:42    821326

23/11/2010 11:52:42
Kilanerinfooty
County: Wexford
Posts: 175

821326 Sorry Derryman that post was meant for Omar.d
____________
Why is there a degree allowance ?
Genuine question - Are they qualified to teach without one ?

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2010 12:04:42    821332

Omar.d
County: Cavan
Posts: 761

821314
Any international economist (except patrique) will say that only out for Ireland is to improve its economy is to improve its competiveness which generates jobs and tax revenue.
The traditional way of doing this when a country was knackered is to devalue the currency (UK did this when they left the ERM)
We are in the Euro so can't do this.

so

1) leave the Euro -
2) Do a theoretical devaluation

The way to do this is to make eveything 25% cheaper - The way to do this is

1) cut min wage by 25%
2) cut welfare by more than the above to incentivise people to work
3) Write down a portion of mortgage debt to relfect the above for people that cannot afford current mortgages
4) rents should come down because the debt has reduced
4) Reduce ESB gas and phone costs and force semi states to become more effecient
5) reduce Public sector oay by 25%
6) reduce all private sector pay by 25% - this will happen through market forces - ie min wage is cut and more people will opt for private sector work which means supply and demand reduces salaries

Nobody is worse off you just have 25% less money coming in but everthing costs 25% less

When all of the above is achieved we then have situation where economic activity increases because our exports are more competive because operating costs reduce. Then tax revenue increases - Then you cut taxes - people are now actually better off and spend more which creates jobs and increases tax revenue - which
means we can cuttaxes - people are now actually better off and spend more which creates jobs and increases tax revenue ..... etc etc

What about the other Electricity supply and Generators in Ireland? will they lower it also? last time I checked the ESB only generated 40% of the electricity in the republic of Ireland. Lower the price of Gas? okay we'll ask the commodity traders in ICE etc to be ultra nice to us and sell it to us for 25% less and maybe forget about the transportation costs to this little Island at the edge of western Europe and at the very end of a complicated Network structure. Maybe the owners of the limited inter connectors to this Island will forget about payment for a year or two while the economy gets back on track.

The worst thing is a while ago you were chief cheerleader for a man that has been found to be fully complicit in the corruption and incompetence that has us in the position we are in at the moment.

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 23/11/2010 12:11:22    821337