There's constantly two extremes on HS. Somewhere between them is the correct, moderate argument.

On the one hand you have posters like bad monkey and Pomeroy who attack everything republican and defend Britain to the hilt. They don't like to say any republican can be said to be a hero. They are happy with the status quo. They don't like ANY criticism of the unionist community eventhough that community has justified some criticism. They use the stereotype of a bar stool republican - celtic supporting bigoted idiot who adores violence and they're not sure how to react to a republican who is not like that at all. This stereotype gives them great comfort and reinforces their opinion. I'm not attacking them, that's just how I see it. They are entitled to their opinion.

On the other hand you have ta32, ulsterman, goodfella and others who are committed republicans. They are unsure how to regard the troubles of the past 40 years and certainly think it's not as straightforward as simply condemning all violence. Their allegiance is very strong to the republican tradition especially the older ones such as the '16 signatories. They do not fit into the stereotype laid out for them yet they are conscious of it. Sometimes their heart rules their heads and they are against something just because of its perceived "britishness."

The argument on this thread is simple. Some Irish people (a tiny minority it seems) want to wear a poppy. Nobody on here says they can't. The poppy means different things to different people. I certainly wouldn't think less of any of my british friends because they wear it. I'm Irish, I live in Britain. I will never wear the poppy as to me it represents the british army. That Irish men served in that army is irrelevant. That army terrorised my ancestors. I'm sure many brave men served in it but that's none of my business. In conclusion, it's a question for each of us and there's no real point to arguing it on here. I've alot of respect for most of the posters I mentioned above. In the Ireland of 2010, who cares about the poppy? I'm confident enough not to give it much thought just like I wouldn't mind a visit from David Cameron.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 11/11/2010 17:11:05    814421

Jon Snow has a lot to answer for...

I wonder if his ancestors fight against the Irish...?

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 11/11/2010 17:20:54    814429

Horse had actually intended to include the Boer war in my post but forgot to list it. My knowledge on the Falklands war and history of the islands is scant to be honest. I simply included them in a short list of wars which the British were involved in and which many people find objectionable. The main reason i suppose that particular war is controversial was the whole sinking of the ship episode, The Belgrano or something I think it was called.

In any event the main theme of my post was to clearly list the conflicting arguments in regard to wearing a poppy which I hopefully did. I gave 10 reasons why one shouldnt wear the poppy. I would have hoped that some of the posters who seem to be 'pro-poppy' such as PomeroyPlunkett, liathroidboy, badmonkey etc could have went down the list and gave counter arguments. So far none of them have for whatever reason, I suspect its because they would rather be controversial rather than actually logically debate anything.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 11/11/2010 17:25:54    814442

hurlinspuds good post

i would like to clarify though that, unlike others here, I have ALWAYS condemned all acts of violence by both unionist and nationalists.

The nationalists on this forum have always refused to condemn IRA atrocities, even on this very thread.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 11/11/2010 17:32:32    814448

Good post hurlingspuds. Would honestly say that I would never object to something simply because of its perceived Britishness as you have alluded to but I get the point you're trying to make.

As a side stroy believe it or not I have a personal interest in the whole poppy situation. My own father received death threats from Loyalists during the troubles over the issue. He was a manager of a retail store and whilst he was abroad on a training course a junior manager in the store told an employee to remove a poppy he was wearing. This employee went to the press and my father was named by a local politician as the manger who asked for the poppy to be removed.

Thankfully the whole thing blew over however he was put in a very dangerous situation due the idiocy of a politican and the conflicting attitudes to the political symbol that is the poppy. However having said all that, to each their own. It is a clearly a matter which should be the personal choice of whomever wishes to wear it or not.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 11/11/2010 17:37:40    814454

Jimbodub did you see one of my previous posts addressed to you? Interested if what I had posted had changed your views on Mr Snow?

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 11/11/2010 17:39:26    814456

hurlingspuds.
great post . well constructed and put here here .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 11/11/2010 17:44:01    814460

I would have hoped that some of the posters who seem to be 'pro-poppy' such as PomeroyPlunkett, liathroidboy, badmonkey etc could have went down the list and gave counter arguments. So far none of them have for whatever reason, I suspect its because they would rather be controversial rather than actually logically debate anything.

Nope goodfella it was because your post was quite poor

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 11/11/2010 17:48:13    814468

Two slight criticisms Hurlinspuds. You say I don't like any criticism of the Unionist community. Given that this community was guilty of the deaths of relatives of mine I find that statement both totally wrong and actually quite insulting. Secondly I would contend that you yourself are one extreme of the Hoganstand posters and as such can't be trusted to come out with an impartial statement. I have never condoned Loyalist violence and so you are simply lying. In your eyes if you're not Republican you must be Loyalist, again your blinkered and romanticised notion of the Troubles from hundreds of miles away rears its head. It actually appears you can't believe someone could detest all violence on both sides. If someone states that they do you either insult them or try to discredit where they are from

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 11/11/2010 17:50:38    814474

Many good decent men died fighting to protect our freedoms. even if you dont want to wear the poppy (I do not) perhaps you should respect the freedom that they provided to allow you to make that decision

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 11/11/2010 17:54:51    814478

Whatever you want to tell yourself bad.monkey, if you cant counter the arguments its ok, just admit it. There's no shame in being wrong!!

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 11/11/2010 17:55:22    814480

Its very true PP, as soon as you condemn the IRA or nationalists in anyway you are labeled a loyalist like you have to be one or the other. its silly but that is the mindset of many on here. Many actually contend that you cant like gaelic sports unless you are a nationalist!!! crazy stuff

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4655 - 11/11/2010 17:58:35    814484

I detest all violence also.I have stated on here numerous times that it is a last resort to all other ways of resolving conflict.It is nonetheless an option at times when all other methods have failed.People and nations "do" have the right to defend themselves.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 11/11/2010 18:01:12    814487

Not getting involved in your argument lads but are Pomeroy_Plunkett and Bad_Monkey twins ?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/11/2010 18:03:44    814490

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2464

814484
Its very true PP, as soon as you condemn the IRA or nationalists in anyway you are labeled a loyalist like you have to be one or the other. its silly but that is the mindset of many on here. Many actually contend that you cant like gaelic sports unless you are a nationalist!!! crazy stuff

I have rarely seen a statement on here that could be further from the truth than this.Many of the people on here who are of a republican persuasion have no difficulties admitting when republicans have done things that were unjustifiable.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 11/11/2010 18:06:31    814496

badmonkey.
you say many good men died to protect ones freedom , and even if one does not want to wear the poppy [ they should respect the sacrifice they made to let you make that decision .

yes i agree , but that also goes for everyone including you , you should respect why people do not want to wear the poppy [ because of the sacrifice their people made for them] that is their right badmonkey . as i have always stated , practice what you preach .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 11/11/2010 18:14:07    814501

reading a long long way by sebastian barry at the mintue about a young lad from Dublin who joined the royal dublin fusiliers and fought for britain in WW1. A lot of Irish did so back then as it was the only paid work available and there was the promise of home rule too... a lot of them were cheered off as heroes when they left and booed and vilified when they returned (post-rising) - that must have been hard to take after surviving one of the most brutal wars in hostory

stranmillis29 (Antrim) - Posts: 788 - 11/11/2010 18:21:54    814510

Pomeroy, you say you have slight criticism and then go on and it turns out your very hurt by my comments. I didn't mean them to upset you. I'm sorry you took it that way. As I once heard said to michael mc dowell, a weak argument always begins with who you were related to. It is irrelevant if someone with some connection with you died. What counts is your own opinion and actions.
I honestly have had the impression that you defend all things Unionist. While criticising all things republican while paradoxically calling yourself republican.
I don't agree with bad monkey on most things but at least he had the good grace to reply in a more positive way. As per usual, despite the fact that my post mentioned 5 different posters, you're the only one who took it badly and thought it was all about you. It's great to have such an ego.
As for the troubles, I've never given any opinion on here on them. I have however stated more than once that I believe that people from the south can't have strong opinions on them. It's like me talking about abortion to someone who has been put in such a position.
I'm sorry for upsetting you.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 11/11/2010 19:11:08    814562

i suppose folks the best thing about nationalist and unionists is that they are a perfect match- both equally as bad and as biggoted, blinkersed as the other, neither is a victim they are both to blame- and to be honest listening to the majority of you on here ye 100% deserve each other!!

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 11/11/2010 19:11:39    814563

Have I ever said you were not from pomeroy?? No, I actually make a point of saying I don't care.
Have I ever expressed an opinion on the troubles?? No, I actually have stated that I don't think people from the south should have strong opinions on the troubles. I have said that I am against all violence and on this very thread said it's great that we have peace and we shouldn't take it for granted.

Poor response pomeroy. Sorry for upsetting you.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 11/11/2010 19:31:31    814590