derryman, the pope is responsible for spreading untruths about condoms.

He has claimed himself that they "aggravate the problem" of AIDS, and refused to sanction leading church figures (cardinals, bishops) when they make bizarre claims like "Condoms are built with tiny holes that allow the virus to pass through." The FACTS are that condoms are effective roughly 80% of the time at preventing the transmission of AIDS (I am not sure what the figure is for other forms of STDs). How can anyone argue against their use?

The catholic church is living in a fantasy-land where everyone is a virgin until marriage - yes this is a good way to prevent the spread of AIDS and other STDs/STIs, but in REALITY (which the catholic hierarchy are far removed from) the stance of the pope is probably responsibly for causing the death and suffering of millions (2million die every year from AIDS, most in Africa). You only have to look at the Philippines (81% catholic), whose government responded to the threat of AIDS by handing out condoms and properly educating its people about the problem, despite the OBJECTIONS of the catholic church. Philippines now has a HIV/AIDS rate of 0.1%.

morris (USA) - Posts: 302 - 17/09/2010 17:19:10    777178

17/09/2010 08:50:45
seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 720

776568
Why were you meeting him Patrique?




Surely you know that the trade unions run the country.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 17/09/2010 19:42:17    777309

there have been reports of 4 north african nationals arrested in the east london region , at a attempt on the popes life , these reports are real , they are being held in central london .


OH WAIT THIS MIGHT BE THE AMERICANS TELLING LIES AGAIN , WE WILL WAIT AND SEE .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 17/09/2010 19:44:38    777312

NOW THEY ARE SIX HELD , ALGERIAN ORIGINE , OH DEAR .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 17/09/2010 20:24:50    777353

Free the algerian 6....

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 17/09/2010 20:34:15    777361

you have already found these lads guilty , you are a disgrace to irish republicans

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 17/09/2010 20:36:04    777363

hipster
County: Dublin
Posts: 1805

Im sure they a harmless,multi-faith embracing group alright.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 17/09/2010 20:53:56    777381

i wouldnt like hipster to be in control of the western countries national security. if he was der wuddnt be much left.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11640 - 17/09/2010 21:00:41    777389

I am of the opinion and i guess science would agree that to have one lifetime faithful partner would stop the spread of STDs. The catholic church believes and I being a member of it also believes this is a good thing for society and the spiritual wellbeing of its members, Therefore the church cannot on one hand say We advocate abstinece and then on the other give a wink and a nodd to the issue of condoms. That would be even more confusing I think. I am not naive enough to believe this will happen but you know what is wrong with striving for perfection some people might just succeed. There is no easy answer and to be honest the advocation of condoms does not sit easily with the teaching of abstinence. What we do know is that abstinence is 100% safe. Condoms according to statistics quoted here are 80% safe. Which do you think is the best option. I can understand how the easy availability of condoms will increase the occurence of casual sex and lowering of morals. It is not a big jump to conclude that this might accelerate the spread of aids I however do not have any statistics to present. In regards to the holes in condoms every institution is made up of individuals and some of them can and often do make silly statements have a look at politicians. We dont advocate the Final dissolution of the dail after a TD makes a stupid Gaffe do we. And finally in regards to statistics quoted here there was a smarter man than I who sai there was LIES DAMN LIES and STATISTICS. You will always find a statistic to support an argument

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 17/09/2010 21:01:45    777391

Was this in Birmingham?

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 17/09/2010 21:09:05    777399

hipster.
i never said they were guilty , all i said was they were SIX arrests , anyway when did u ever care about irish republicans .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 17/09/2010 21:10:18    777401

dhorse.
yes my son , free the six now .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 17/09/2010 21:12:05    777402

you have already found them guilty you would be a good hanging judge

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 17/09/2010 21:23:14    777411

The below are only some comments that have been used to question the Authority/Influence of the Pope. I feel they are good points and are worthy of an answer. I will attempt to answer them from my own understanding of where I am at in my Faith journey and this will not be a definitive Theological answer only my Laymans understanding so please be understanding.

1. the Catholic Church is living in Fantasy Land
I can understand how some one who is not Christian or catholic might think that the struggle to be Christian is a Fantasy. It is not anew allegation the Early Christians were charged with the same. Is there a more Fantastic Story than the life of Jesus. Few of his contemporaries accepted his teaching and the accusation of being out of touch was leveled at him also. That is why Jesus said "we must be in this world but not of it". I think some meditation on that phrase opens new ideas and thoughts it took me a long time to begin to understand it.

the stance of the pope is probably responsibly for causing the death and suffering of millions
I do think you are drawing a long bow on this one. The reality is if everyone adhered to the teaching Aids would not spread through Sexual contact. But I do understand what you are saying. I do remember the public Health campaign in the 80s when every public advertisement told me that I was in great danger of contacting HIV if I did not use a Condom. That Iwas in fact at jeopardy and the only way to be safe was to use condoms. I have yet to see an advertisement that says the only absolute gaurantee is one lifetime faithful partner. I therefore can lay the same charge at the public health systems that do not advocate this as a lifestyle choice. I wonder how many teachers social workers and health proffessionals have began their sex education with children by advocating the use of condoms and ignored the alternative.

Philippines now has a HIV/AIDS rate of 0.1%.
I did a little bit of research on this and the only Statistic I could findmay support this comment but it was given for Eastern Asia. So we will accept the statistic as fact. Your argument was that it was the availability of condoms that was responsible for this low statistic. I have two thoughts on this. Firstl, Europe East and west have a higher incidence of aids. Europe is a much wealthier economy and their public health budgets are much greater than the philipines and I suspect the availability of condoms is greater in Europe. Second, The philipines are among the most Catholic of countries much greater than Europe and still of the more traditional church. I could but I will not presume to use your own statistic to support the church.

These mistakes you refer to, are they sins , crimes or some grey area in between
I do know that the Vatican issued a statement to clarify the position. If you will not accept their response there is little chance you will accept any from me. However the reason I am sending this post is not for you but for me. The times so many of these crimes were taking place were different and there was generally a lesser understanding of the crime itself and the widespread nature of it. There was also a very limited understanding of the nature of the perpetrator. I would imagine that the thoughts of the authorities were that now that he has been found out surely he will have learned the lesson and not do it again. Now this hope combined with the desire to protect the institution lead good people to make bad decisions. This unfortunately is a very human condition. I also suspect that if other non church institutions were given the same attention then very similar scenarios will emerge. There is currently a very similar thing now happening in fermanagh and this is after the rigours of the law have been applied.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 18/09/2010 12:36:11    777547

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2546

777401 hipster.
i never said they were guilty , all i said was they were SIX arrests ,

guilty by insinuation,, no smoke without fire, annie maguires bomb factory....... surely you dont believe anything the british security system tells us.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 18/09/2010 12:43:41    777554

dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 6085

777554
ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2546

777401 hipster.
i never said they were guilty , all i said was they were SIX arrests ,

guilty by insinuation,, no smoke without fire, annie maguires bomb factory....... surely you dont believe anything the british security system tells us.




Alas he does. Note I asked if this happened in Birmingham as I seem to recall something about six people being arrested over something in Birmingham in the past.

This entire thread comes down to the fact that Ta32 and a few others believe everything the Brits tell them.

The rest of us do not.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 18/09/2010 12:59:45    777563

18/09/2010 12:43:41
dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 6085

777554 ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2546

777401 hipster.
i never said they were guilty , all i said was they were SIX arrests ,

guilty by insinuation,, no smoke without fire, annie maguires bomb factory....... surely you dont believe anything the british security system tells us.
____________________________
British government is under pressure for blowing £30m+ on security for the popes visit
What better way to justify this that to prevent a suspected terrorist attack.
Clever tactics

Omar.d (Cavan) - Posts: 1141 - 18/09/2010 13:00:10    777564

These mistakes you refer to, are they sins , crimes or some grey area in between
I do know that the Vatican issued a statement to clarify the position. If you will not accept their response there is little chance you will accept any from me. However the reason I am sending this post is not for you but for me. The times so many of these crimes were taking place were different and there was generally a lesser understanding of the crime itself and the widespread nature of it. There was also a very limited understanding of the nature of the perpetrator. I would imagine that the thoughts of the authorities were that now that he has been found out surely he will have learned the lesson and not do it again. Now this hope combined with the desire to protect the institution lead good people to make bad decisions. This unfortunately is a very human condition. I also suspect that if other non church institutions were given the same attention then very similar scenarios will emerge. There is currently a very similar thing now happening in fermanagh and this is after the rigours of the law have been applied.


In his latest statement he is still avoiding any reference to the sin/crime of cover up from the upper echelons, himself included,, he merely apologises for priests crimes.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 18/09/2010 13:01:29    777565

derryman
County: Derry
Posts: 1416

"The times so many of these crimes were taking place were different and there was generally a lesser understanding of the crime itself and the widespread nature of it. "

What a load of bull****. The victims would have given these educated men a thorough understanding of the crime if they had listened instead of silencing subjecting them to more punishment.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 18/09/2010 13:06:06    777570

This unfortunately is a very human condition. I also suspect that if other non church institutions were given the same attention then very similar scenarios will emerge. There is currently a very similar thing now happening in fermanagh and this is after the rigours of the law have been applied.

I have no doubt it was and is happening in other institutions religious and secular,, does that mitigate The catholic church in some way, ah sure its ok what we did, others were doing also.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 18/09/2010 13:10:49    777577