SF are in government within the 6 counties because the people elected them to do so - nothing to do with the 'price of peace'. It's called democracy, a wholly new concept to the north of Ireland so it is perhaps understandable if some have difficulty in grasping this point.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 13/09/2010 12:47:21    772825

peace came at a cost , but the cost was that not of the social elite of a party?
good people with just cause and care give their all , unaware of the elites intentions .
so sad this all has become , but there is peace , sure that makes everthing ok.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 13/09/2010 13:17:46    772867

artisan, its not democracy. Democracy is the theory of majority rule. Its power sharing, consensus style government in the North.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 13/09/2010 13:28:38    772888

Laugh of the week, Artisan saying we have a democracy here. Is there any other country in the World that have the inept bunch of politicians that we do. We had an Environment Minister who said Global Warming wasn't man made, he's now Finance Minister on the basis that he used to teach Economics. An Education Minister who quite simple is the most disagreeable and inept politician you're likely to come across, she's in charge of the future of our children. A First Minister who only cares about lining his pockets and a Deputy First Minister who was a senior figure in a terrorist organisation. That's what you get however when the vast majority of people vote on religious grounds as opposed to policies, it's simply a sectarian headcount

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/09/2010 13:41:06    772914

Abhainn
I thougt democracy was what the people voted for! I thought the people voted for powersharing.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 13/09/2010 14:05:05    772958

Abhiann - Democracy is so much more complex a concept than majority rule. A state which has a government based on majority rule is not necessarily a democracy, see the north of your country 1922 - 1998 as just one example.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 13/09/2010 14:05:46    772962

artisan
County: Down
Posts: 264

772825 SF are in government within the 6 counties because the people elected them to do so

Are they not in power because they get the majority vote from one religious group?

If they are elected to govern why dont they go to westminster?

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/09/2010 14:59:10    773043

For the benefit of the confused -

Democracy is any form of government in which the citizens of the state are treated equally and have equal access to the priviledges of citizenship. These rights are safe guarded by the law of the land which is administered without prejudice. It can be but is not necessarily characterised by majority rule. Several Countires have it written in their constitution that the government of the land must be a coalition government, recognizing that one party majority rule can lead to the dilution of democratic principles.

I suspect abhainn there are many posters from the 26 counties who would dearly love to have this form of government, as opposed to a redundant form of government inherited from colonial oppressors which is so open to abuse and assault on democratic principles.

Ireland as a whole will not achieve a truly democratic form of government until the Island is reunified, perhaps that is the real reason why some fear reunification, not so much reunification as democracy itself.

dhorse - Welcome back mo chara, I hope you had an enjoyable holiday.

So why don't SF take their seats in westminster?

Several reasons, firstly they are elected on an abstentionist manifesto and as such to take their seats would betray the vote of those who endorsed this policy at the ballot box. Secondly, as a genuine Republican party to swear allegiance to an unelected bourgeoisie would be a violition of Republican Socialist principles.
Thirdly and most importantly, it would not further the cause of National reunification.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 13/09/2010 15:46:08    773096

Apologises dhorse,

re your first point,

The religion of those who vote is irrelevant. Yes the majority of Catholics vote SF, does that make their vote invalid?

Too simplistic to talk about a religious divide in the north. It is much more a political / cultural divide fostered by an imperialist government as a form of divide and rule. The same tactics are now being used in Iraq.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 13/09/2010 15:51:44    773107

fair point artisan!

I for one though, am not one of those who would like the same principles down south - one bunch is enough for me, never mind 2!

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 13/09/2010 16:00:19    773117

artisan
County: Down
Posts: 266

773107 Apologises dhorse,

re your first point,

The religion of those who vote is irrelevant. Yes the majority of Catholics vote SF, does that make their vote invalid?

I would never suggest anyone's vote was invalid, once it was their only vote of course. Just because one questions something doesn't mean that they are totally against it. Thats a pretty well worn ploy with extremists all over the world, identify any source of difference of opinion as being in the enemy camp and proceed to villify them on that basis, usually with an insulting name attached. yourself not included on that score.
The only real vote that matters up there is which party is the largest on each side of the divide, as they are guaranteed power sharing on that result.
As for SFs republican ideals, I think they are right up there with FFs.


Hols were mighty,, except for a spot of food poisoning in Tiblisi, top class medical care though. Good to see that the Agenda on here hasn't changed in my absence. 5 more weeks and away again.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/09/2010 16:18:46    773154

dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 5939

773043 artisan
County: Down
Posts: 264

772825 SF are in government within the 6 counties because the people elected them to do so

Are they not in power because they get the majority vote from one religious group?

If they are elected to govern why dont they go to westminster?


Does it matter what religion people are, are we to be denied a vote because we are catholics? Sounds familiar it happened for 50 odd years, but you wouldnt know about that being a son of the celtic tiger. It is not in Sinn Fein's mandate to go to Westeminister, if they did they would be doing a dissservice to the people that voted for them. Their refusal to sit in the British Government is one of the main reason that Irish Republicans vote for them in the huge numbers that they do.
I would read up on issues before you spout your trip in the future yuppy.

CheFinny (UK) - Posts: 1358 - 13/09/2010 16:22:05    773160

artisan
County: Down
Posts: 266

I suspect abhainn there are many posters from the 26 counties who would dearly love to have this form of government, as opposed to a redundant form of government inherited from colonial oppressors which is so open to abuse and assault on democratic principles.

Artisan, you appear to be mis-informed. We use a proportional representation system (single transferable vote), the British us a plurality voting system commonly known as First past the post. I believe the lib dems are lobbying for just such a system in the UK. Of all the things we inherited thats not one of them. It might come as a bit of a surprise and a disappointment to find that we do not envy your system, it would appear you envied ours. Thats why you now use this system in your assembly and local government elections.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 13/09/2010 16:35:20    773179

CheFinny you're a very angry man I've noticed. Relax and don't take everything so personally, you'll live longer. The point he was making is people here vote on religious grounds which is undeniably true. I'm old fashioned in that I think policies should dictate who you vote for but not here. They'd save time and money by just looking at how many Catholics/Protestants there are in each constituency and then just giving them the appropriate candidate

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/09/2010 17:36:38    773303

CheFinny
County: UK
Posts: 967

773160 dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 5939

773043 artisan
County: Down
Posts: 264

772825 SF are in government within the 6 counties because the people elected them to do so

Are they not in power because they get the majority vote from one religious group?

If they are elected to govern why dont they go to westminster?


Does it matter what religion people are, are we to be denied a vote because we are catholics? Sounds familiar it happened for 50 odd years, but you wouldnt know about that being a son of the celtic tiger. It is not in Sinn Fein's mandate to go to Westeminister, if they did they would be doing a dissservice to the people that voted for them. Their refusal to sit in the British Government is one of the main reason that Irish Republicans vote for them in the huge numbers that they do.
I would read up on issues before you spout your trip in the future yuppy.

It shouldn't matter what religion anyone is, but i'm led to believe thats how the system works in the north, how come it has to be one fro each side that shares power, not 2 unionist parties or 2 nationalist parties?

I would love to hear you expound some more on my son of celtic tiger credentials please, born in 1956, unemployed, tell me more, or is it you feel you have to pigeon hole anybody with a dissenting view to yours. Maybe its time to rid ourselves of the religious divides that has served the ruling classes for so long

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/09/2010 18:09:48    773356

CheFinny
County: UK
Posts: 967

773160 dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 5939

773043 artisan
County: Down
Posts: 264

Their refusal to sit in the British Government is one of the main reason that Irish Republicans vote for them in the huge numbers that they do.

I dont think anybody ever asked them to be in government, i merely asked why they didn't take up their seats. no doubt thats why so many people vote for them and a similar amount vote for unionist canditates, simply becuse thats all they stand for, maybe thats what needs to change.

I would read up on issues before you spout your trip in the future yuppy.

Not sure if you mean tripe or trip , i like the Yuppy tag, if only you knew, but so long as you can label me as something you despise, sure what harm.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 13/09/2010 18:25:21    773376

Corrxxx
County: Kerry
Posts: 333

773179 artisan
County: Down
Posts: 266

I suspect abhainn there are many posters from the 26 counties who would dearly love to have this form of government, as opposed to a redundant form of government inherited from colonial oppressors which is so open to abuse and assault on democratic principles.

Artisan, you appear to be mis-informed. We use a proportional representation system (single transferable vote), the British us a plurality voting system commonly known as First past the post. I believe the lib dems are lobbying for just such a system in the UK. Of all the things we inherited thats not one of them. It might come as a bit of a surprise and a disappointment to find that we do not envy your system, it would appear you envied ours. Thats why you now use this system in your assembly and local government elections.

I think you are drawing your own conclusions from my posts corrxxx. I don't recall stating that PR was not in use in the south. I believe there are many in the south who would dearly love the checks and balances we have in place in the north so as to curb political corruption. Democracy does not rely on the system of voting as opposed to the system of governance. Here I was thinking this democratic utopia you live in was the same state who not once but twice over ruled the peoples vote to please their politcal masters in Brussels.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1794 - 13/09/2010 21:05:11    773590

I always find it difficult to understand how supposedly enlightened and educated people raise a discussion on Irish history and still believe our problems in Ireland are about religion. Our problems here are about foreign interference and this foreign presence used the sectarian card to divide and rule. People to a very large extent vote on whether they feel themselves to be Irish or Not. They do not vote because they are catholic or Protestant. It is a sad reality that british propaganda has divided the residents of this country along religious grounds. Any one with a remote smattering of Irish history knows that some of the greatest patriots and Gaels we have were of protestant extraction. And if it were not for the peculiar priviliges awarded to the Orange order by a foreign power we would again have great protestant patriots.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 14/09/2010 11:12:48    773866

I always find it difficult to understand how supposedly enlightened and educated people raise a discussion on Irish history and still believe our problems in Ireland are about religion. Our problems here are about foreign interference and this foreign presence used the sectarian card to divide and rule. People to a very large extent vote on whether they feel themselves to be Irish or Not. They do not vote because they are catholic or Protestant. It is a sad reality that british propaganda has divided the residents of this country along religious grounds. Any one with a remote smattering of Irish history knows that some of the greatest patriots and Gaels we have were of protestant extraction. And if it were not for the peculiar priviliges awarded to the Orange order by a foreign power we would again have great protestant patriots.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 14/09/2010 11:23:38    773880

artisan
County: Down
Posts: 268

I believe there are many in the south who would dearly love the checks and balances we have in place in the north so as to curb political corruption. Democracy does not rely on the system of voting as opposed to the system of governance. Here I was thinking this democratic utopia you live in was the same state who not once but twice over ruled the peoples vote to please their politcal masters in Brussels.

What pray tell are these "checks and balances" that we are so desperately short of. Do you have a constitution? That would be a start! As for curbing political corruption, Martin McGuinness was a .......before he became a politician?

I presume you are talking about the Nice and Lisbon treaties, which after they were rejected by the Irish people were returned a year later in a re-drafted referendum. With Lisbon once the critical issues like tax,abortion and neutrality were legally guaranteed the Irish again voted. Much as you would like to paint a different picture, no-one over ruled the people, they VOTED for the treaty with 2/3 in favour. With all your checks and balances I dont recall anyone voting for or against the Lisbon treaty. Oh thats right your prime minister didnt think it was necessary. Well done Tony!

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 15/09/2010 12:47:29    774920