Will Irish people ever face facts and realise that we helped expand the British Empire and the Catholic Churchs empire with disregard for human rights ,life or culture..

Zzzzzzzz, so what if we did, get over it!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 06/09/2010 12:50:13    766284

If you look at historical documents you usually find a semblance of truth, and as Abhainn knows I was being selective on ONE point in relation to his being selective on ONE point.

But artisan has it right.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 06/09/2010 19:09:34    766836

artisan
County: Down
Posts: 256

766248 Abhainn - Patrique is completely correct re the 1918 general election.

You have also just proven his point about selective history. The SF manifesto was at best ambigious about military action - as it had to be as the Catholic Church would have taken them to pieces, (remember the times we're talking about here) so in no way whatsoever can it be claimed as a mandate for war. A country under occupation needs no mandate, the french resistance did not have one either. Dan Breen pointed out that after soloheadbeg he was denounced as a vile murderer almost universally throughout Ireland with support only coming from the Republican grass roots. The population as a whole began to alter their attitudes to the IRA only after the black and tans started their terrorist campaign. There is no moral or historical difference between any generation of Irish Rebels - despite what holier than thou staters may claim.


Artisan, I see the point you're making, but its not true. You are right, the manifesto was ambiguous, but it would take a real fool not to read between the lines, particularly given what happened 2 years previous. You give the church too much credit for their influence - it was BIG, but not big enough to stop the Rising, to stop the anti-treatyites in the Civil War, and not enough to adversely influence matters in 1918. And anyway, a significant number of the clergy were pro-Volunteer, it was mainly thre bishops etc who were not. That the population as a whole began to change their opinions after the Tan campaign is selective, as it completed the cycle yes, catching constitutional nationalists who may previously have been ambiguous themselves. Before then however, there was large scale reports of populations all around the country rallying behind the volunteers.

Taking Galway, which I have written a thesis on in the period - the volunteers came back in Christmas 1916 to 4,000 people in Galway, which only had a population of 14000 and was considered to be the most loyalist town in Ireland in 1914 (so said the Chief Sec). All of the speeches reported in the papers campaigning for the elections were in no way designed to fool people - war was on the way, and the Volunteers repeatedly said they were going to take back the country. Conscription was an enormous issue, don't get me wrong, but the groundswell of opinion was not merely because of that, and people voting in 1918 knew exactly what they were voting for.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 07/09/2010 11:18:00    767336

hipster
County: Dublin
Posts: 1720

764774 Will Irish people ever face facts and realise that we helped expand the British Empire and the Catholic Churchs empire with disregard for human rights ,life or culture..

Will Irish people ever face facts that hundreds of years of complex history can not be reduced to a sweeping statement.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 07/09/2010 14:41:24    767673

Now abhainn dont be trying to use logical arguements to have a discussion with these guys. They only deal in sweeping statements and generalisations! Facts have no place in a thread like this!!

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 07/09/2010 14:46:54    767682

Well said roundball.

Wests_Awake (Galway) - Posts: 877 - 07/09/2010 15:25:21    767755

roundball yes it can

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 07/09/2010 16:16:11    767825

hipster
County: Dublin
Posts: 1727

767825 roundball yes it can

No. It can't. If it could then nobody would bother studying it. Your broad and sweeping statement may contain a lot of truth but it does not tell the whole story and is therefore dangerous. That type of view of history is used when terrorists try to justify their actions.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 07/09/2010 20:00:20    768214

No. It can't. If it could then nobody would bother studying it. Your broad and sweeping statement may contain a lot of truth but it does not tell the whole story and is therefore dangerous. That type of view of history is used when terrorists try to justify their actions.

no statement or work can contain all the facts so by your logic no history cannot be spoken of because it is dangerous..?

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4649 - 07/09/2010 20:11:50    768225

history is there for all to be read make out of it what you will

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 07/09/2010 21:14:07    768297

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2404

768225 No. It can't. If it could then nobody would bother studying it. Your broad and sweeping statement may contain a lot of truth but it does not tell the whole story and is therefore dangerous. That type of view of history is used when terrorists try to justify their actions.

no statement or work can contain all the facts so by your logic no history cannot be spoken of because it is dangerous..?

Eh, no. I'm saying that having a reasonable, intelligent debate on historical events is very important. What is dangerous is when history is simplified ie. Irish people were resposible for atrocities carried out by the British Empire and the Roman Catholic Church. This is similar to the Nazis justifying their persecution of the Jews by blaming them for financial instability or some dissident Republicans justifying violence in the North because they claim that Ireland was always a united nation and Ulster was stolen from us. Although it could be argued both these views contain some truth they are both broad, indiscriminate and fail to contextualise things.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 11/09/2010 12:30:51    771493

well roundball irish people served in the british army when they were expanding their empire , and the irish catholic church under romes guidence sent missionaries out around the world to expand the catholic church they never cared about the people they were converting religion just that it was wrong , and the sad thing about it is we supported it by putting money in the church box every week simple as we were duped , but there is great examples in irish history like roger casement or the saint patricks brigade and many more , but this is about facing facts that we also done a lot of wrong

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 11/09/2010 12:57:58    771515

sigh.

the greatest mistake our ancestors made appears to be having bequeathed us an education system which can't teach basic grammar.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 11/09/2010 13:04:43    771525

patrique and hipster really are difficult to take, patrique is just like Malachy, shouting the odds about things while doing exactly the same himself.

CheFinny (UK) - Posts: 1358 - 11/09/2010 15:31:07    771627

A man once said: "The Irish are the only race in the world that cannot be psychoanalysed!"

How true is this! (Thats a statement by the way, not a question!).

Look at the 1916 rising. The rebels were not supported and got a bad time from some people for wrecking the place so to the Brits this was a non issue to deal with them severly and yet Lloyd George had a little idea of the Irish mindset when he impressed caution onto General Sir George Granville Maxwell not to "overstep the mark" because the Irish are not English. And sure enough, within the space of two weeks the rebels went from being viewed by many as upstarts to being national heros after the executions!

I believe that men everywhere admire a brave man and a good effort. I simply think that no matter what it is, or where it is in the world, that the Irish will always admire the efforts of the underdog and even if that underdogs fight is for the wrong cause we can still admire that for that person their struggle is for the right cause in their minds and we can respect their efforts for that!

Why have we always loved our folk heros abroad like Ned Kelly the Australian bushranger, even though he killed policemen! Is it because we always see them as being wronged in some way?!
Why do we look at programmes like 'Mobs Mheirica' ar tg4 and hear tales about the Irish gangsters in America and we will them on in their struggle against the mafia mobs even though they defrauded so many people etc! Is it because we see them as being just ordinary decent criminals and one of our own who actually dragged us up from the gutter through their criminal enterprises!
Why do we look at Éalu ar tg4 and will the criminal to make his/her escape from prison to freedom!.......Is it because we admire the audacity of them even though we may be appalled by their crime?!

Is that why the Irish are indeed the only people who can never be properly psychoanalysed? The villan is a hero and the hero is one of our own, and our own people are our own people at the end of the day and authorities will always be a little alien to us even though we support them 100%.

Sound confusing? Yes, but it kinda makes perfect sense to us as Irishmen too! We will be the only ones that can ever really understand it simply because we are Irishmen and we are of this place and all its odd quirks that make it great and set us apart!......maybe thats why we cannot be psychoanalysed!.....we are too complex in the head and beyond psychoanalysis which is for more simple minded nations!

Thoughts?!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 12/09/2010 19:02:27    772382

in my eyes a man like uncle tom patrique should be disgusted with himself. Him a west belfast man living in a heartland of irish Republicanism should never be ascribing Republican heroes as criminals considering what they have done for the likes of him.

CheFinny (UK) - Posts: 1358 - 13/09/2010 11:42:18    772727

Snuf
Is it because we are inherently honest and because of our own peculiar history of fighting greater odds at every venture we are so aware of the old adage "there but for the grace of God go I"

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 13/09/2010 11:50:31    772734

It was Sigmund Freud that said that.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12347 - 13/09/2010 12:08:27    772758

Does CheFinny think he's being witty by calling everyone Uncle Tom I wonder? He's repeating it constantly like it's the funniest thing he's ever said, problem is it probably is. Everyone know what these Republican terrorists are and how they have held our country back, the price of peace however is having these same people in Government now

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/09/2010 12:21:41    772772

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1398

Who would you like to see in government? Jim Allister?

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 13/09/2010 12:36:34    772810