Cavan_Slasher-I agree completly with you!

kerrykerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1779 - 31/08/2010 12:43:35    761199

Cavan_Slasher.....how can two referree the same.....just like no two payers can play the same.

You obviously, nor do most, the amount of courses, trainings and tests the referrees go under. Despite the rubbish written the overall standards are better, and it is people like yourself, who would take a few errors and explode them way over the correct decisions that drive false debats.

Refs will always make mistake. Technology will never solve that, and I still say the reason Down won was becuase they were the better team.

Even if the goal was dis-allowed how come everyone is so sure that Down would not have won anyway?

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 31/08/2010 13:01:57    761238

I suppose some on here follow soccer, cricket or snooker..... is there not a possibility that the crookery that goes on in those sports might sometimes occur in the world of GAA?

BIG SACKS (Tyrone) - Posts: 1681 - 31/08/2010 13:33:44    761287

Witnof,

There is something wrong with a game if something is a free kick this week and not the next week and technical assistance will not fix that !! Referees need to be on the same level and clearly some are not up to the level !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 31/08/2010 15:37:58    761484

Witnof-the refs should be consistent in following the rules instead of the more frequent players adapting their game to play to the ref's of the day's intrepretation of the rules. Overall, I accept that every two refs are different-therefore all the more reason to introduce some objectivity into the game; especially in the business end of the game. We could at least try to see if technology can reduce the inconsistency and take some of the pressure off the refs-we experiment with so much in the league; why not introduce video technology in the league in 2011 and use it to offer further information to the ref regarding scores or discipline when he or his umpires have made an error or didn't see the score or act of indispline.

As for other sports having their errors etc, so what, its the consistency of fairness in GAA games that matter here and this year there has been some disappointments and inconsistencies, most notable the Louth incident.

kerrykerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1779 - 31/08/2010 21:01:02    761942

Witnof How can you make out that Down might have won anyway even if the goal was disallowed? Are you saying that they sat back and could have scored more than they did if required? In my opinion no Down team would sit back and as far as I'm concerned they scored as much as they could have. Down were being praised in the papers before the match for being ruthless not letting teams back into a match.

OntheWhiteSide (Kildare) - Posts: 452 - 31/08/2010 21:35:24    762005

bad year for refs

GerryMc (Mayo) - Posts: 218 - 31/08/2010 21:41:32    762019

Will no Kildare poster address the Kildare goal? Or indeed some of the frees given to them. I know you all must be gutted but lets have a bit of perspective.

Basher (Antrim) - Posts: 15 - 02/09/2010 13:05:10    763320

There are two aspects here:

1. Technology

Some issues to raise, technology works well in games that are stop start like it does in Rugby, but in Gaelic Football and especially hurling the movement is more continous and hence the chance and time to review is not there.

Second what to review? The action leading up to a contenous score or just the score itself? How far back in the play should action be reviewed etc. Not an easy questions. What else, a dodgy line ball, a personnal foul?? So was aspect of game to review is not so easy to define.

Third, who should call the review? The referree only, the two teams??? If its the ref only and he is already convinced of his decision it beats the purpose of the technology review. If its the two teams, how often? for what? will they use it as a tactic to delay or slow down a game?

So I do not believe its as simple as people here or journalists believe, its a populist issue that non one has thought through.

2. Consistency of Refs.

When this is been discussed it usually refers to specific incidents that people claim had an impact on the game rather than the general overall performance. And my point is, that due to the courses and trainings etc. and selection processes that refs go through that the level of referring is overall better than it was before. And sometimes you have to standback and review from a far and not the heat of the moment, and remember journalists and the boys on RTE are there selling a product for sales or ratings and a bit of controversy helps.

No two refs will ever be the same, for sure, as no two players are, and its the overall application of the rules that measures consistency rather than specific incidents.

Now as to the Down goal winning the game, my point is that if it was disallowed why do people presume they would have lost. There tactics became to defend the lead after the goal but if it was disallowed who's to say they would not have driven on anyway to build a lead.

Then the Kildare goal he over-carried? Or did the referree allow advantage becuase he felt he was be fouled? And here the answer to this question is not in technology, you can argue either point of view equally validly.

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 02/09/2010 20:39:19    763935

GerryMc
County: Mayo
Posts: 197

762019 bad year for refs

No it has been a good year for refs apart from few isolated incidents.

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 02/09/2010 20:48:26    763950

Are some of the Tyronies on here going soft in the head? If McEneaney had cost us the equivalent of 1-1 in an AI semi we'd be fairly exercised on here. After all t took us from 1995 to 2005 to forgive Paddy Russell :-)

On_the_ditch (Tyrone) - Posts: 98 - 02/09/2010 21:53:47    764026

Witnof, Its obvious you're from the Sepp Blatter school of thought but in response to your post, where I believe the use of technology would benefit high profile GAA is as follows.
Some issues to raise, technology works well in games that are stop start like it does in Rugby, but in Gaelic Football and especially hurling the movement is more continous and hence the chance and time to review is not there.
Rugby only uses the TMO for checking whether the ball has been touched down and in doing so whether the player is in control of the ball and not in touch.
If for instance a player has received a forward pass in scoring the try the TMO is not allowed look at this.
The GAA equivalent would be to check whether the ball has crossed the line, over the bar, between the posts and in the act of scoring whether the scorer made a legal connection with the ball. This would probably rule out the Meath goal (for falling over the line/throwing the ball) and rule in the Kildare point that was given wide, but wouldnt cover the Down or Kildare goals. This should cater for the, How far back should you go? Also with regards to the continuity issue, balls can be fitted with transmitters and sensors fitted to the posts (one of the options soccer is looking at) which would enable an immediate definitive call on whether a point or goal has actually been scored. Even in tennis the hawkeye system would be able make a decision by the time the goalkeeper is about to put the ball on the tee.
Its clear though that the square ball rule needs returning to the league format and the ref needs to be up to the job on the steps issue.
A dodgy line ball? No one would expect this to be covered
A personal foul? No one would expect this to be covered
Who should call the review? The referree only, the two teams??? If its the ref only and he is already convinced of his decision it beats the purpose of the technology review. The referee only should call for a review. You often see in rugby where the referee is 100% certain a try has been scored he gives it immediately. However when he is only 99% he nearly always goes to the TMO and controversy is averted. As only the ref calls for the TMO no one else can slow the game down.
Additionally, I believe it would be worth looking at using a TMO for penalty decisions. Its virtually impossible these days to decide what's a penalty and what's not until you see a replay.
A TMO would also aide the consistency of the refs, with less big calls taken from their hands they would have less of a chance to muck it up. Some refs look like they are paralysed by fear out there.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 03/09/2010 09:19:05    764066

As I posted a while back..... surely all the best technology and training are made useless if you have the odd referee with the same tendencies as a Pakistani cricketer.

BIG SACKS (Tyrone) - Posts: 1681 - 03/09/2010 10:04:58    764087

What is exact wording of rule ref square ball ?

monitor (Down) - Posts: 209 - 03/09/2010 10:10:47    764093

Basher
County: Antrim
Posts: 12

Will no Kildare poster address the Kildare goal? Or indeed some of the frees given to them. I know you all must be gutted but lets have a bit of perspective.

In fairness there hasn't been too many Kildare posters involved in this thread at all and even less who are giving out about the decisions. I would agree that by the letter of the law Leper's goal was illegal but to really argue that point involves taking on Pat Mac's interpretation of the rules and the number of fouls he will frequently ignore in order to let the game flow. How many other times outside the square were players alowed to continue running if given an advantage?

I don't think Kildare were robbed but nobody can ignore some big and relatively straightforward decisions went against us. I suppose what grates more than the actual cumulative effect and swing of scores caused by the decisions is just that they appear so obvious. I was in the lower hogan and could see Coulter was in the square. A huge cheer from the cusack stand side greeted Smith's disallowed point. Perceived soft frees and taking too many steps are a little more trivial.

Down used the ball better and had a lot more of it and deserved their victory and place in the final. The decisions, wides and goal chances just show how fine a margin there really is between victory and defeat. Best of luck to Down in the final! A chamionship this dramatic deserves an outsider to win it...

doublehop (Kildare) - Posts: 4172 - 03/09/2010 10:13:28    764094

BIG SACKS
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1280

764087 As I posted a while back..... surely all the best technology and training are made useless if you have the odd referee with the same tendencies as a Pakistani cricketer.

thats a bit defeatest

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 03/09/2010 11:42:37    764185

A square ball is defined as a technical foul. The referee is the only one who can decide if it is a square ball or not. He can, however, ask his umpires for their view before he decides the course of action to take. An umpire cannot call a square ball on his own - merely in consultation with the referee.

4.9 For an attacking player to enter opponents'
small rectangle before the ball enters it during
play.
Exception
(i) If an attacking player legally enters the
small rectangle, and the ball is played
from that area but is returned before the
attacking player has time to leave the
area, provided he does not play the ball
or interfere with the defence, a foul is not
committed.
63
(ii) When a point is scored from outside the
small rectangle and the ball is sufficiently
high to be out of reach of all players, the
score shall be allowed even though an
attacking player may have been within the
small rectangle before the ball - provided
that the player in question does not
interfere with the defence.

Trenchman (Waterford) - Posts: 114 - 03/09/2010 13:54:46    764352

Assuming the GAA do nothing to bring in video refs or any type of in-game challenge, counties should follow Meath's lead and whine about referees before games... it's pretty useless complaining afterwards when the result stands regardless. It seems to work too... when were Meath last on the receiving end of an outrageous decision that actually cost them an important match and how many times have they been lucky?

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 04/09/2010 15:40:05    765036

Pericles
County: Mayo
Posts: 456

765036 Assuming the GAA do nothing to bring in video refs or any type of in-game challenge, counties should follow Meath's lead and whine about referees before games... it's pretty useless complaining afterwards when the result stands regardless. It seems to work too... when were Meath last on the receiving end of an outrageous decision that actually cost them an important match and how many times have they been lucky?

14 years later and you are still bitter. Honestly - let it go, its eating you up inside. You will feel better after.

anfearbeag (Meath) - Posts: 1134 - 04/09/2010 21:08:43    765295

iv been saying this all year
if a player makes a mistake he gets punished either by the ref or by his manger
when a ref makes a mistake we here the calls for video evidence,they blame the rules and make experimental new 1s to shift the blame,
they shift the blame to the louth supporters,
when are the gaa going to come out and blame the refs and officials
if a team is not good enough a manger will do either (A) rebuild with new players or (b) train the players harder and improve them
why is this common sense not used with officials either train the current group of refs better and if they have a bad game suspend them for few weeks like a player
or bring in new better trained refs to do the job

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 07/09/2010 18:49:40    768113