PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1288

763552 Two simple questions really

1. Were the Allies not fighting for what was just and right against a regime that had killed countless millions and if victorious would kill God only knows how many more?

2. If so should Ireland not have helped in this fight?

Well done Pomeroy. And if we should have been so principled, if they hadnt declared war, should we have pressurised them to do so or maybe declared war ourselves on a point of principle because thats just and right. Or are we just somebody elses puppet. You wouldnt tackle the bully unless all your mates are around you?

And if its just and right to fight against a regime that killed countless millions, were the modern day allies (Nato/US etc.) not cowards for turning a blind eye to the genocide in Rwanda and Bosnia/Kosovo? Where were the principled Irish soldiers like yourself when these wars were going on? Were you at least protesting against what was unjust and wrong, demanding we do something militarily or were you waiting for your cue from big brother?

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 02/09/2010 16:14:06    763569

Truly unbelievable, people's hatred of all things British means they can't even accept that the Allies fighting the Nazi's was the correct thing to do because the British Army were one part of the Allies. Can't believe such narrow minded views still exist and are so prevalent in the 21st century, move on lads, this hatred isn't healthy

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 02/09/2010 16:31:26    763595

Corrxxx,

Not to mention the Middle !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 02/09/2010 16:38:23    763605

pomeroy, I see where you're coming from, but you don't take into account a couple of things. The most important of those is, at what point did people start to hear about/know about the atrocities happening in poland/austria/germany in Germany's name. Not until towards the end of the war.

If you say, well look, hitler was clearly a bad man with bad ideas long before then....then why was he Time's man of the year...why were britain and france colluding with him to give away sovereign states in the late 1930's? In 1939, Britain looked as devoid of moral authority as ever it had. Irish people had fought a war against her 17 years before, and here she was chopping away czechslovakia from the map, etc. Why would Ireland join?

There is still a good case to be made for joining the war I feel. Its just not as straightforward as you are making it out to be

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 02/09/2010 16:38:25    763606

Its just not as straightforward as you are making it out to be

Excellent point abhainn.

However if you've ever 'debated' anything before with Pomeroy Plunkett you'll quickly realise that he only sees things in black and white, no shades of grey whatsoever!

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 02/09/2010 16:48:31    763628

And if its just and right to fight against a regime that killed countless millions, were the modern day allies (Nato/US etc.) not cowards for turning a blind eye to the genocide in Rwanda and Bosnia/Kosovo? Where were the principled Irish soldiers like yourself when these wars were going on? Were you at least protesting against what was unjust and wrong, demanding we do something militarily or were you waiting for your cue from big brother?

Couldnt have put it better myself Corrxxx

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 02/09/2010 16:50:32    763629

Hitler or Churchill?? Which tyrannical racist do you prefer? Or would you rather have nothing to do with it. You would be a fool to think that you were fighting for freedom for anyone, you are fighting and most likely dying not for your country but for politicians own interests. If Hitler held power in Germany and carried out the evils that he did on the Jews without stepping beyond the boarders of his country would there have been a crusade from anywhere else to stop him, even if it was known what was happening?

I doubt it.


I'm also having my suspicions about all this being churned up at a time when Britain is looking for new recruits to carry out bloodshed in the middle east. A little bit of revisionism in the media might soften Irish attiudes and help in the recruitment I suppose. The ranks might be a little thin after the last decade of misguided aggression.

LoyalRoyal (None) - Posts: 466 - 02/09/2010 16:51:34    763632

Pomeroy,

My point, is that of all the wars that have been fought over the years why do you think WW2 is the one we should have fought in if your criteria was "whats just and right".

WW1: Y/N
Vietnam/Korea: Y/N Communism was going to take over the world no one wants that!
Gulf War: Y/N Took over a sovereign state
Bosnia: Y/N genocide of Bosnian muslims
Rwanda: Y/N genocide of 1m+ tooties
Afghanistan: Y/N harbouring of Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups
Iraq: Y/N Was looking at WMD's but didnt have any. Murdered kurds to beat the band
plus the actions of countless dictators such as Polpot, Pinochet, Idi Amin.

I personally disagree with most of these wars but theres at least two of these when it would have been more right and just to have been involved. Where were you then? Spouting sermons from the couch is my guess.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 02/09/2010 17:05:55    763659

"Truly unbelievable, people's hatred of all things British means they can't even accept that the Allies fighting the Nazi's was the correct thing to do because the British Army were one part of the Allies. Can't believe such narrow minded views still exist and are so prevalent in the 21st century, move on lads, this hatred isn't healthy "

Ah, it's the ta32 School of Debate (i.e. just keep repeating your opinion like its fact, ignore any tricky questions while maintaining some bizarre sense of moral superiority), brilliant.

Come on PP, you're better than this. Let's ignore the whole British issue (a radical step in this place, I know). Let's even pretend, like you do, that the Irish government could have somehow magically forseen the Holocaust in 1939.

How many countries (esp. small European countries with no army etc) entered WW2 of their own volition?

whereangelsplay (Cork) - Posts: 240 - 02/09/2010 17:19:55    763684

wereangelsplay.
i have a ipinion , and do not try to be ipiniated , what i am stating is reality in those times in ireland , and also put yourself in the shoes of a northern nationalist , then u might grasp reality , because i am afraid thats all this boils down to smarty boy.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 02/09/2010 17:55:33    763740

Corrxxx what you fail to grasp is that WW2 directly affected Ireland. If the Nazi's had won they would have invaded and occupied Ireland. Even with their very freedom at stake Irishmen refused to fight. The Gulf War, Bosnian War etc. did not affect Ireland unless you have some inside information that Hussein was thinking that after Kuwait Ireland would be the next logical step

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 02/09/2010 19:58:40    763881

Is not Hindsight a wonderful thing. Had I had it long ago My life would have been so different.
I can fully understand why the Irish Government of the day were reluctant to join any war. They did not have the money to feed their own people never mind finance a war. There was an obvious and understandable mistrust of any and all things British. At the outset of the war no one had any idea of what the nazis were. But the thing I find hard to forgive is that churchill in talks with De Valera Agreed to return the 6 counties to Irish sovereignity in return for the use of Irish Ports. The unionist administration had agreed to this, But De Valera refused on the pretext that he wouldnt forgo Irish Neutrality The rest of us know that had the 6 counties joined the political process in the free state at that time De Valera and Fianna Fail would have been wiped out at the polling stations.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 02/09/2010 20:33:53    763929

derryman.
iteresting post allright , but because of the mistrust the irish had for the across the water , do u really believe churchill would have kept his end of the bargin , and also dev being dev do u think that was his reasons as u stated for saying no to opening up the ports ?

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 02/09/2010 20:48:09    763949

ta32
I actually do think so. Churchill was prepared to give the agreement in writing and was fully aware that he would have to see it through. DeValera was alway interested in only one thing DeValera

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 02/09/2010 20:53:54    763956

derryman.
fair enough , history does show dev in a other light and as rightly stated by yourself dev was only thinking about himself in many ways .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 02/09/2010 20:58:47    763964

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1301

763881 Corrxxx what you fail to grasp is that WW2 directly affected Ireland. If the Nazi's had won they would have invaded and occupied Ireland. Even with their very freedom at stake Irishmen refused to fight. The Gulf War, Bosnian War etc. did not affect Ireland unless you have some inside information that Hussein was thinking that after Kuwait Ireland would be the next logical step

I grasp your point perfectly, but you do not grasp mine. I agree wholeheartedly that WW2 was almost certainly the only one of these wars that affected Ireland directly, but your platform for the justification of Irelands involvement is based almost solely on doing "whats just and right" and in not doing so the associated shame that should be involved, the self interest is only a minor point for you.
If this should be the premise for involvement in war then I return to my point that there are so many other conflicts we should have been involving ourselves in before we ever should have turned to WW2. I will always feel thoroughly ashamed, that while we the international community sat comfortably on our couches having these trivial ideological debates that a million people were being ethnically cleansed in Rwanda, long after I ever feel ashamed about WW2.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 03/09/2010 10:08:13    764090

well when one consider the british friendly invasion was the best thing that ever happened ireland and probably still is in the north as they cant do a thing for thmselves and would be a third world country without westminster - i would have to say as the germans are the shining lights of eurpose it would have being a great thing to happen

liathroidboy (Mayo) - Posts: 4921 - 02/10/2010 16:45:06    788918

Nazis were geared up to invade Ireland


In my limited understanding of history. I think the Nazis were geared up to invade everywhere.

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 03/10/2010 13:56:14    789195

liathroidboy
County: Mayo
Posts: 403

788918 well when one consider the british friendly invasion was the best thing that ever happened ireland

When did that Happen where Might I get a written account of it?

derryman (Derry) - Posts: 3246 - 03/10/2010 14:10:04    789201

derryman
County: Derry
Posts: 1486

789201 liathroidboy
County: Mayo
Posts: 403

788918 well when one consider the british friendly invasion was the best thing that ever happened ireland

When did that Happen where Might I get a written account of it?
-----------------------
Don't worry Derryman, pomeroy plonker is probably writing it as we speak, should be available from Easons in time for the Christmas rush! Besides, I doubt very much if liathroidboy can actually read anyhow.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 03/10/2010 15:13:27    789228