dhorse
County: Laois
Posts: 5922

753972
Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 468

753876 People mighnt necessarily concur with the original post but the fact is Michael Collins achieved and did a hell of alot more in his life than any posters on this website who criticise him.

That would be very dependant on what one considers an achievment.

One or Jaun?

JuanVeron (Westmeath) - Posts: 1866 - 23/08/2010 18:06:45    754011

Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 470

753995 Fair enough point dhorse, perspective is everything! Do you not consider him to have achieved much?

The only one that could really answer that would be himself. For all I know his greatest ambition might have been to settle down have clatter of kids and grow cucumbers, i doubt it though. Whatever it was i hope it was more than his succesors gave us i.e. Dev and his cohorts. We in the south were fed the line That uniting ireland was the be all and end all of our existence, and the conversion of russia of course, that kept john charles onside. But all the time The establishment down here did damn all about it except wave the flag at election time. They had their little fiefdom and didn't want northern unionists or republicans coming in and upsetting the applecart. So when people now say they want a united Ireland its very easy to say yes but whats the point if its just going to be a bigger version of our sham republic or a role reversal in the north with one triumphalist majority being turned on by a new triumphalist majority. Whenever the time comes, and it will, people need to look at what change for the overall good can be achieved. Having a refererndum and getting a majority is one thing but getting 25% of the population (min) to participate in it is another. People north and south need to look at the realities and then perhaps the gombeens on all sides can be taken out of the equation to some degree, I for one can't see that happening with the current leaders of all factions all set up nicely in their little niches

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 23/08/2010 19:55:05    754167

I hear the points you make dhorse, it has always been my hope that constitutional change on the island could reinvigorate the country in a whole in a more positive direction. I think things have gotten rather stagnant at present and as you say certain groups seem content in the niche they have created for themselves.

Certainly i'm not sure Collins would have been too pround of many aspects of modern Ireland had he been alive today. Though having said that, had he been alive today it would have been some achievement given he was born in 1890!!!

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 24/08/2010 09:46:22    754396

dhorse - Collins died before any of that could/would happen. Did he achieve much during his brief life? The answer to that is clearly yes. Agree or disagree with the politics of it, but he managed to run a military/intelligence/propaganda war against one of the most powerful nations in the world. That is not Neil Jordan history - his film is rubbish and a distortion of the facts, but Collins was nonetheless a man who achieved a huge amount

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 10:33:00    754455

Had he lived he might also have tried to set up a military dictatorship. It was the era of Mussolini and there were a lot of admirers of fascism on the Free State side. Or he might just have gone along with the Cumann na nGaedhael policy of basically running the place the same way and in the same interests as the Brits. Or had he attempted anything more radical the likes of Cosgrave and Higgins might have sidelined him as they did the Collins supporters in the army in 1924. No-one knows.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 24/08/2010 10:46:56    754476

I think thats a bit simplistic hurlingdub - in an era when many new states succumbed to fascism etc Ireland was kept on an even keel in a turbulent world thanks to some pretty good government by CnaG. I don't agree with a lot of what they did, but neither do I think it was running the place the same way as the Brits. In many ways it was better, but in many ways worse. Contrast it with the mess we were left with as soon as the more 'radical' republicans got into power.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 11:00:42    754495

The Free State under CnaG was an abysmal place. Mass unemployment and emigration, some of worst slums in Europe, highest child deaths in Europe, and the economy run by the banks. Actually maybe not a lot has changed!

Seriously though, at least FF in the 30s did have a bit of a vision and they created jobs, built houses, schools and hospitals. Didn't take them long to pander to the same interests although arguably again in the late 50s they did provide another stimulus to the economy, albeit through surrendering even more control to external interests.

One thing that has been constant is that the country is basically in the hands of an elite that owes its position to banking, finance and speculation rather than real economic development which has been led by multi nationals. In his writings Collins did talk about a different Ireland but his own party immediately gave in to the elite.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 24/08/2010 11:08:47    754509

hurlingdub

I agree with you, the Free State 22-32 was not a good place to be. But I don't think you have to wait until the 50's to see signs of FF following them. An ill advised economic war that should have been over years before it was, a ridiculous policy of self sufficiency which meant that Irish farmers had no market for their produce and ensured they lived in greater abject poverty than ever before and pandering to the church so much that we allowed them to write half our consitution. Add to this, greater intellectual repression and a bonzai foreign policy designed seemingly to alienate ourselves from everyone and I think FF was infinitely worse than CnaG The slums, poverty and mass emigration you speak of was there before 22, and was there after 32. They were both poor, but CnaG was a stabilizing force, whereas FF was the opposite.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 12:22:18    754618

FF built all the local authority housing schemes you see around the country that were built in the 30s and 40s. That put an end to most of the slums. As for the intellectual repression, the censorship was put in place under CnaG. Fair enough FF retained it for years but they also got rid of it! I am not defending FF and wouldn't vote for them but historically in this state they have been responsible for same sort of social and economic changes associated in UK and northern Europe with Labour and social democratic parties. CnaG/FG are the classic right wing party here and as for Labour, I won't even bother going there!!

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 24/08/2010 14:01:07    754778

its true, they did build a lot of houses, and got rid of a lot of the slums. Censorship was brought in in 1929, but in reality little was censored until FF came into power. I agree, CnaG/FG are right/centre right, and they wouldn't get my vote, but the CnaG government did a remarkable job. They should have been more agressive economically, they should have incorporated more of the proclamation/1918 manifesto, but they stabilized the country after 50 years of violence. (taking the land war as the start).

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 14:16:35    754816

I admire him up to the Civil War as the great man he was then no I am sorry after that he sold the North out like many in the South.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9816 - 24/08/2010 14:22:04    754826

They stablised the country abhainn. But in whose interests? The people who had fought for so long were no better off than they had been. Worse in some cases as they actually enforced wage cuts on Dublin dockers who had won some sort of decency after 1913. Sure if stability was the issue there ought not have been an armed insurrection in the firdt place.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 24/08/2010 14:38:33    754856

stability is one benefit, and its true, some of the urban working class were worse off, although by the end of the WoI land redistribution was complete in the West and the rural class, having done most of it itself, was far better off. But you're right, and pension cuts hardly made them seem very caring. Stability was at a cost sure, particularly in the cities but the alternative was a society which continued to collapse in on itself.

Ulsterman - thats completely untrue. Collins launched an attack on the 6 counties, and said repeatedly that he want to take them back, by force or otherwise, before he was killed. The chip on your shoulder is blinding you to the truth in this instance

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 15:22:58    754965

He shouldn't have signed the treaty abhainn British threat or no British threat without the 6 counties on board. There is no way the US would have allowed an all out British attack on Ireland and Britain was already broke after WWI so they couldn't have afforded another long drawn out conflict. Either the country went as one united island or all bets are off. Even a united Ireland within the British Commonwealth would have been a better deal, that's what Carson wanted and he withdrew to England a broken man after partition.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9816 - 24/08/2010 15:32:03    754984

ulsterman - the six counties were already in existence, and that existence was leglislatively protected.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 15:36:00    754994

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 2456

754984 He shouldn't have signed the treaty abhainn British threat or no British threat without the 6 counties on board. There is no way the US would have allowed an all out British attack on Ireland and Britain was already broke after WWI so they couldn't have afforded another long drawn out conflict. Either the country went as one united island or all bets are off. Even a united Ireland within the British Commonwealth would have been a better deal, that's what Carson wanted and he withdrew to England a broken man after partition.

ulsterman collins did not want to go in the first place.dev send him.it was the best thing he could have done.he seen it as a stepping stone.he said that he signed his own death warrant when he signed the treaty.deep down dev knew that he could not do any better so thats why he send collins and not himself.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 24/08/2010 15:44:29    755008

When and where does legality start and end abhainn? Where Britain, Unionists and partitionists say so? There was NO democratic vote on partition, the people of Ireland did not have a say in the division of their country. The North was and still is a gerrymandered illegal statelet like Israel.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9816 - 24/08/2010 15:45:13    755010

fair point Ulsterman. The treaty negotiations never had the North on the table, and I think he thought geting independence for the south would make an economically unviable state out of the six that he would take back by force or otherwise. The 6 counties not being included was not the main reason for the treaty split, either north or south, (although people weren't happy about it) - everybody assumed the North would eventually join up with the south.

abhainn (Galway) - Posts: 1000 - 24/08/2010 15:57:51    755035

Our brothers in the North were abandoned , and the South was not ready for independence :
Collins made many poor decisions.

Bigapple (Kerry) - Posts: 495 - 24/08/2010 16:41:30    755126

A lot of posters good at making retrospective judgements based on how things turned out. Unfortunately Collins didnt have this luxury at the time he had to make the decisions.

Having said that, getting killed in his prime probably allows him much more popularity than had he lived on to old age.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 24/08/2010 17:40:08    755246