veron.
the evidence is there black and white , but u fail to see it , do not u dare insult my intelligence .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 17/08/2010 21:56:18    748893

17/08/2010 21:01:26
Scruffy2Donut
County: Cavan
Posts: 756

748791 madasbutter
County: Mayo
Posts: 839

Why dont you read seanie-boy's post and pick flaws in it? No, you cant, because every word of it is the true.
17/08/2010 21:20:23

__________________
Because at the moment there is lower hanging fruit
Now getting back to this democracy of yours

Do you feel that if the majority want - then the there should be no religious freedom for the minority ?

madasbutter (Mayo) - Posts: 872 - 17/08/2010 21:59:17    748904

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2365

748893 veron.
the evidence is there black and white , but u fail to see it , do not u dare insult my intelligence

Can i ?

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 17/08/2010 21:59:20    748905

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2365

748893
veron.
the evidence is there black and white , but u fail to see it , do not u dare insult my intelligence .

Sounds like you are insulting my intelligence there boss!

I gave anecdotal evidence of how local New Yorkers feel but you dismiss them in favour of your own views.

JuanVeron (Westmeath) - Posts: 1866 - 17/08/2010 22:01:16    748910

dhorse or Ogall if you two are trying to say something to me,then address it specifically to me.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 18/08/2010 09:15:20    748942

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2366

748893 veron.
the evidence is there black and white , but u fail to see it , do not u dare insult my intelligence .

Sorry I can't find any references to specific FACTS. I must have missed something. All I see is a load of conjecture

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 18/08/2010 09:23:02    748947

Scruffy2Donut
County: Cavan
Posts: 756

748648 It would appear, that even in the face of conclusive, UNDENIABLE, evidence to support the notion that Americans do not want this building,

Barrach Obama doesnt have a problem.
Juan Veron "lives in New York, works in Downtown Manhattan (near ground zero) with New Yorkers of different faiths, some Muslim, some Christian, some non-religious. Some of them lost friends and family on September 11th. Most of them, that I've discussed this with, think that the construction of this community centre and mosque would be beneficial to community relations"

This ofcourse to some posters is DENIABLE.

What is the conclusive, undeniable evidence? Has anyone sworn a deposition, lodged a formal complaint that we can reference online.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 18/08/2010 09:31:56    748960

dhorse or Ogall if you two want to say something to me,address it to me please.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 18/08/2010 09:35:03    748966

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2366

sruffy.
have u looked at that l yet?

Yes, I googled them, they seem like a good band, nice to see Irish people showing solidarity with New Yorkers over 9/11.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 18/08/2010 09:58:37    748985

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 477

748966 dhorse or Ogall if you two want to say something to me,address it to me please.

Who are you?

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 18/08/2010 10:02:30    748991

Maybe it would be simpler to just ban Muslims from the vicinity of the attack on the world trade centre.Perhaps a radius of five hundred yards or so.This would be ideal because then the American people could say they weren't against the idea in principle,but since Muslims aren't permitted in that area then there would be no point in building a mosque there.Not a very nice or neighbourly way to do things though.Is It? Perhaps somebody should tell the Saudis that the rule banning non muslims from entering Mecca or Medina isn't a particularly friendly line to hold either,especially when the reason given is that its because they are infidels who are "unclean" and therefore unfit to walk upon this sacred ground.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 18/08/2010 10:08:31    748999

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 479

748999 Maybe it would be simpler to just ban Muslims from the vicinity of the attack on the world trade centre.Perhaps a radius of five hundred yards or so.

Great idea. Everyman with a turban, a long beard, dark complexion and full robe called Mohammed could be banned because thats how we determine what a Muslim looks like. I love Team America.

However not all Muslims look like this. You probably only said it in jest but how would you filter out the Muslims? Would Mohammed Ali be banned?

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 18/08/2010 10:55:39    749051

You figure it out lad,since your second guessing me anyway I will let you decide.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 18/08/2010 11:14:42    749072

corrxxx.
all u see is a load of conjecture .
come on start using your own words and maybe we can go somewere , which bit cannot u see , canu not see the pain that was inflicted on the people of 911, can u not see how thousands of families will never see their loved ones again because of the terrorist attacks that had taken place september 11 2001 , cannot u not see the suffering and lack of sensitivity this will cause if a mosque is built in and around the site of ground zero , these are hard facts people must look at and realise the people of new york deserve better .

they deserve dignity , not p.c words of appeasment like conjecture ?

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/08/2010 11:26:31    749085

juanveron.
look listen if came across insulting your intelligence than i apologise , that was not my intention the reason i am saying what i am saying is the people and victims families and victims of this terrible atrocity deserve better that is basically it , now u would have experience of new york and the views of some of the people living there i am not saying u do not , but if let me say something there is a lot more people out there that do not want this mosque , and rightfully so , i have a cousin who lives in clinton , and a another one that lives in syracuse and believe me , people are disgusted by this proposal they would be insulting the memory of the victims of 911 if they let this go ahead , this is not about racism that would be the easy way out and cave in , these people deserve a whole lot better if my fierce objection to this protrays me as a racist then so bit , if that is the price to pay for caring about the feelings and suffering that people went through that day then so be it , it is a price a will gladly pay

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/08/2010 11:38:05    749100

seanie boy.
people will not express how they feel because they are afraid to be labelled there is no backbone in this debate with a lot of posters because they feel if they suddenly find their feelings getting in the way they do not know how to express how they are really feeling , so they take the easy route and start insulting and resorting to silly name calling because they have become so domesticated in the sense of their views , they are lost in what is right or wrong .
very sad really .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/08/2010 11:43:55    749108

Corrxxx
County: Kerry
Posts: 53

For newcomers like yourself, it helps to read the ENTIRE thread before posting. I already quoted opinions from leaders of victims groups and relatives of those murdered.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 18/08/2010 11:53:32    749126

ta32
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2369

749085 corrxxx.
all u see is a load of conjecture .
come on start using your own words and maybe we can go somewere , which bit cannot u see , (1.) canu not see the pain that was inflicted on the people of 911 , (2.)can u not see how thousands of families will never see their loved ones again because of the terrorist attacks that had taken place september 11 2001 , (3.) cannot u not see the suffering and lack of sensitivity this will cause if a mosque is built in and around the site of ground zero , these are hard facts people must look at and realise the people of new york deserve better .

they deserve dignity , (4.) not p.c words of appeasment like conjecture ?

To your 4 points above (i took the liberty of putting the no.s in)
1. Yes of course, this is fact
2. Without doubt this is a fact
3. No, and this is the whole point of debate. This is an opinion and not a FACT. Islam is a religion with a few practitioners and states who bring extremism to it and shame upon with what they did that day. Many muslims died that day. Many innocent muslims have suffered (not even mentioning Iraq/Afghanistan) in the US as a result of the ill feeling towards their religion as a result of that day. Presuming the people building the mosque/cultural centre CLOSE (but not on) to the site of ground zero have been veted and are not extremist then surely they can have only good intentions in doing so. Embracing the concept and moving on is the only way to cross this divide.
4. Conjecture is when you use the facts in points 1 and 2 to infer a result in point 3.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 18/08/2010 12:06:41    749151

corrxxx.
we know iraq was invaded for the wrong reasons , now can we get back to the debate at hand .
i agree that as i have said before they are innocent muslims out there , but why do they feel the need to build a massive mosque / cultural center near the vicinity of ground zero , these people that are behind this have a sinister motive u cannot look at it any other way , why are they not taking into considerations or the humilitations that families of 911 are going to suffer because of this the people of the united states do not want this , because they feel that this is offensive and degrading to the memory of everyone who lost their lives that day , the americans are very vocal about this , and u know what i agree with them , if muslims leaders or imams feel there are not been insensitive to this madness , then i am afraid they are kidding no one , there total lack of respect and ill thought idea of this massive project can only mean one agenda ?

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 18/08/2010 12:22:31    749182

Scruffy2Donut
County: Cavan
Posts: 758

749126 Corrxxx
County: Kerry
Posts: 53

For newcomers like yourself, it helps to read the ENTIRE thread before posting. I already quoted opinions from leaders of victims groups and relatives of those murdered.

I wouldnt be a newcomer to this debate I have posted on it since the start however I missed your post with the quotes, so point taken.

You have quoted 2 leaders of a victims group and a canadian moderate muslim (why a canadian I dont know) and these sources seem credible. They represent a decent proportion of American opinion but to imply this means the majority of americans and most importantly New Yorkers are against this is reaching.

For how long must the city remain divided about and suspicious of "the Muslims", is every attempt at bridge building and integration a cynical effort to subvert the American dream. Only when people move on and realise it was extremist s**m who perpetrated these attacks and not an entire section of their society will the rift heal.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 18/08/2010 12:51:15    749231