Regarding the question of whether there is a fatality against the fence, it's a fair one. I don't know why you're asking me though, as I've stated, I'm not particularly a supporter it, and if you think anyone consulted me, you're mistaken in the last degree. Stewards heard about this fence the way the rest of you did - through the media. There was no show of hands from us. And we don't know today how it's going to work, to the extent that I'm wondering whether last Sunday was my last game (it was a pleasure, by the way. The Waterford and Tipperary people are terrific, a delight to work with to a person).

But the questions could well be asked in the coroner's court in this situation, as you say. But in this instance, I think Mr. McKenna would be better placed to explain how he ran a public relations exercise, it didn't work, and was left with no option but to get experts in to erect a fence which complies with the highest possible standards in the industry. I think that would cover his duty of care far better than, "well, I didn't bother in the end. Some lad on the internet said he wouldn't sue if his leg was hanging off, so I thought I'd start learning the violin".

The truth is, I don't know what can or should be done at this juncture. The GAA have failed to secure the cooperation of the public in this, I don't know whether that's because of the way they tackled the situation, or whether it simply was never going to be possible.

I do know who's in the middle though, and many of us can see only one way out.

Kat (Dublin) - Posts: 17 - 17/08/2010 15:09:41    748244

Well said Kat

I watched last years hurling final again last night and was struck by the picures of the Cats celebrating thier massive achievement countered by the sight of Paidraig Maher prone on the ground sobbing with the very last of his energy. This all happened in the 5 minutes before the barrier was breached and i was struck by how fair it was for lads who had given everything for 70 minutes and all year to be allowed to celebrate and commiserate in their own time and with thier own team mates.

Then the crowds flooded in and Michael Fennelly had to spend his moment of glory not praising his mentors and comrades but urging people to move back to allow everyone to breath.

This is on top of the most important considerations over safety but it just struck me watching it last night.

Tradition is great in its place but these lads deserve better.

EamonCorcoran (Tipperary) - Posts: 167 - 17/08/2010 15:43:24    748302

Great stuff Kat, well said. Great to get a steward's perspective in all of this...

doublehop (Kildare) - Posts: 4172 - 17/08/2010 15:48:14    748317

Kat
County: Dublin


Great post.

Con Cavan (Cavan) - Posts: 894 - 17/08/2010 15:59:55    748347

Very well written post by Kat but I feel a lot of the abuse and pressures faced by the stewards is simply because there is no proper plan in place. I for one am in favour of maintaining supporters entering the field and believe this is one of our sports great traditions and begins with parents, brothers sisters ect coming on the field after club underage finals to congratulate or console their son or daughter. This continues to senior club level and then to county level. I think the thing that makes the GAA great is the amateur ethos and the fact that the team belongs to the people, it's the sense of identity you win together you lose together. I remember in 97 the wonderful sight of the Cavan support under the stand with the players as the cup was presented but remember in equal measure the thousands of Cavan fans who graced the Croke Park turf after the semi final defeat to Kerry to console the players who served them so well and in many cases offer their word of thanks for the journey experienced that year. This to me is what shows the true sense of community and sense of place and in turn is a show to players of why pride in the jersey is so often a rallying call.

If a plan was put in place allowing an invasion then we could both keep alive this tradition and also protect the volunteers who put themselves in the firing line. A system of more exits onto the field would allow the crowd more safety entering the field, stewards assisting people enter the field rather then been handed the impossible job of preventing them would also be of assistance. As has been mentioned supporters should be made aware of the protocal maybe through a short information video before the game or at half time showing exactly what will happen. Possibly a 2 minute wait before the gates are open to allow stewards prepare the field, perhaps to wheel out mobile barriers in front of the stand similiar to those on terraces to break up the swell of people. I'm not saying i've the answers but I think by working together with supporters rather then against them a suitable solution for all can be found

live_in_hope (Cavan) - Posts: 4 - 17/08/2010 16:45:37    748462

I've been working as a volunteer steward in Croke Park for the past two years. But I've been lucky enough not to have to stand holding the orange curtain. The supporters should be allowed onto the pitch without the curtain or fences. These stop the flow of people onto the pitch .....this is what causes the aggression and the bottlenecks...

Farney (Monaghan) - Posts: 824 - 17/08/2010 17:45:32    748543

First of all, thanks to everyone for the kind remarks!

Perhaps I've given the impression that I've some ethical objection to people going on to the pitch. I haven't. If I believed it could be done safely, I'd be all for it, and I was until I saw the other side! The problem is that there are just enough people who use moments like winning an All Ireland to completely lose the run of themselves. It's really very few, but those jackasses are there, and we've a duty of care to them as much as anyone else.

I can't see how, realistically, letting people on could be done safely. I don't think we'd be any better able to contain the crowds if they knew we'd be opening the gate in two minutes than we currently are. There would be people for whom that would still be ruining the magic moment. And we'd still have the problem of how people are going to get out. Jumping over the wall has risks, but expecting people to form an orderly queue at the gates does, as well. I can see a scramble to be the first to the aisle, pushing, shoving and tempers flaring. And it's hardly fair to the losing fans - if there's a queue going towards the pitch in the aisle, how do they leave?

The vast, overwhelming majority of people in CP won't cause these problems. They just want to have a good time and celebrate, doing no harm to anyone. There's just a minority who look for an excuse forget about dignity and courtesy to others. They're the ones who are only interested in upholding their personal tradition - doing exactly as they please, regardless of how they affect others.

We stewards really know where the supporters are coming from. Why would we be there otherwise? Certainly not for the food! We love the occasion, the colour, the excitement, and the game. Our motive is definitely not to spoil or diminish anyone's experience. Why would anyone bother giving up their Sunday to do that?

Kat (Dublin) - Posts: 17 - 17/08/2010 18:45:41    748627

good and reasonable post again but we need to find a way to improve it's not black and white.

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 17/08/2010 18:50:34    748641

I know it isn't. Other than leave (for my own safety), I literally have no answers, just my own experience and observations.

But I did read Tom Humphries article this week, and finally I felt that I wanted to say something. I'm pretty sick of this perception that we're disposable objects of scorn. Even though we've a tabard on, we've familes who love us just as he loves his daughters. Why is the risk to the stewards OK, even encouraged? Why is it alright for him to criticise us like that when he clearly doesn't know what our role is? How come there are so many who think they have all the answers to what should be done, yet don't put their own hands up?

I found it pretty hurtful. I know I hid that above!

Kat (Dublin) - Posts: 17 - 17/08/2010 19:08:31    748671

Fair play to you Kat. This thread has been waiting for someone from the front line to come on and share their experiences. You stewards do a great job with very little recognition.

..and no, I don't have the fencing contract. Its sad to see the fence going up but CP was left with very little alternative faced with the massed disobedience.

caughtredhanded (Tyrone) - Posts: 602 - 17/08/2010 19:57:50    748724

The safest solution to pitch invasions would be to complete the stadium. Surely the residents that object to the hill being completed could be swayed if they understood that the current state of Hill 16 is an accident waiting to happen

saortheas (Limerick) - Posts: 47 - 18/08/2010 11:00:59    749062

Just read that Tom Humphries article now - in my opinion, it's an incoherent mess and pretty disgraceful in parts.

As well as having a go at the stewards, he lashes on a big dollop of 'good old days' guff about running down the back of the old hill, getting caught in barbed wire etc., presenting this as 'evidence' that "there is no tradition of litigation in Croke Park" rather than asking the GAA about incidents and claims histories, like any half-decent journalist should.

He also trots out the 'solution' of attaching some legal waiver to ticket purchases so that anyone who enters the pitch does so at their own risk while not addressing how this could actually work legally (it couldn't) or how the GAA could deal with someone being injured by others trying to get onto the pitch if they weren't trying to get on themselves.

Humphries also doesn't seem to notice that his opening paragraph, describing how the English writer savoured the hurling final in Croke park on one of the few occasions where there was no pitch invasion, contradicts the rest of the article glorifying pitch invasions.

hurling_lad (Cork) - Posts: 69 - 18/08/2010 11:07:01    749066

Con someone post a link to the humphries article, i havent read it yet

EamonCorcoran (Tipperary) - Posts: 167 - 18/08/2010 11:41:51    749105

Yes, I've been surprised by the number of people who think that Croke Park can discharge its duty of care to patrons by adding a disclaimer to tickets. Of course they can't, it doesn't work like that. If it did, there'd be many contracts in many dangerous jobs these days which would include a waiver of employer obligations in safety areas. Building sites would be far more dangerous places! And what about a patron who is under 18? Even if such a disclaimer would work for anyone over the age where they can consent to the terms of a contract, you'd be left with either not selling tickets to anyone under 18, or having a duty of care to only those under 18 - would that mean they'd have to sit in a separate section, possibly away from their families? In that case, could anyone bring children too young to seat separately, given that purchasing a ticket now means that you've pretty much understood and agreed that the final whistle means uncontrolled mayhem?
 
Obviously there's no chance of any of that happening, I just wonder whether, when people come up with these solutions, they think them through even a little bit?
 
I personally do believe that there are lots of people in this country who sue the GAA if they were injured during a pitch invasion - I'm just surprised that anyone doubts it. We all know that that's a very lucrative area, and on a day when there's going to be a pitch invasion, generally there are 82,000 people in attendance, a huge cross section of society (rather than a subset composed of every single individual in the country who wouldn't consider suing an organisation if they were injured on their premises). We like to think we're special, but we're not. The GAA is made up of all sorts, and attended by all sorts. Even those who'd happily bankrupt the entire association if all the money went into their bank accounts.

Kat (Dublin) - Posts: 17 - 18/08/2010 12:20:11    749176

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0816/1224276890016.html

Balderdash the lot of it, from a reporter who I always enjoyed reading too.

caughtredhanded (Tyrone) - Posts: 602 - 18/08/2010 13:00:26    749248

Honestly I think the major problem is the whole planA/plan B nonsense. Simply, if people knew they were going to get onto the field you wouldnt have the crazy surge and crush, stewards wouldnt have to put up with the abuse from people trying to break the lines and this whole H&S red-herring wouldnt be an issue. If the real issue was about H&S, then surely the presentation would still take place in the stands (think KK 2002), not on the pitch. Simply this is a move to get corporate advertising plastered everywhere on a podium, a presentation that reeks of effort and has nothing in common with the GAA or its traditions, pretty much this is just a cynical move by our own Sepp Blatter. Really, this scare-mongering has overtones of George W Bush and his Weapons of Mass Distruction dossier. At the time alot of people had utter faith and trusted it was for the greater good. Now everyone knows the real reason for that particular 'invasion', money money money. Make people afraid and they will comply to anything-the power of nightmares it's called.

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 18/08/2010 13:37:06    749306

Really, the notion that this is a money-making scam is just tinfoilhatted paranoia. If it was, who'd be getting the money? The GAA organisation. Not a penny of profit goes into anyone's hands. Some people get a salary; they won't be getting more for the sheer grief of dealing with this. It's funny; you get these people who are so quick to lay accusations that everyone else is motivated only by profit or personal gain. It never occurs to them that it's their mindset that has them seeing the world in that way. They throw around accusations that everyone else is a cynic, yet can't believe that there are humans who'd actually think that they'd not like to be responsible for the death of another person above all else.
 
Apart from that, there's a recession on. There's no bonanza to be made from advertisers.
 
The fact is, people use the excuse of excitement and exuberance to act pretty much like animals (and that's basically what a few of them do. A very few now, but I've seen enough of them with my own eyes. I've been spat at, I've had someone kicking at my arms and my face, I've been called all kinds of names, I've been pushed and shoved and really, only for the crime of holding up a piece of orange plastic). It's not whether there's a Plan A, a Plan B, a Plan X or a Plan Top Secret Conspiracy To Become Instant Millionaires Off Stopping People From Stampeding Found Out By Extraordinarily Clever Internet Forum Users Using Their Patented "Guessing" Method. Even if you don't have the policy to stop people from running on to the pitch, they still can't get on safely as I've already explained above, because they're doing this as an expression of their ultimate right to do anything they want without restraint, so they won't be forming an orderly queue. And we have extensive evidence that the people who are most determined to do this are the same ones who are determined to show the stewards and stadium management that they won't listen to anyone.
 
You know, anyone who thinks it's so safe, or thinks it's so benign, or thinks there's no risk, should join us. And then you can tell me after you've seen it with your own eyes that it's OK. Step up. Take some responsibility for your point of view.
 
Who knows? If they do get the pitch invasions to stop, you might even get a cut of the Forbidden Millions.

Kat (Dublin) - Posts: 17 - 18/08/2010 15:34:29    749478

So you are saying in a pretty round-about way that corporate gain is really at the heart of all this? These people are an utter disgrace to the GAA btw for using the deaths of people at Heysel, Hillsborough, Bradford and ibrox to sell this anti pitch celebration policy. People are not stupid. If the suits get their way and have their pathetic stage on the pitch, then it will be very clear by looking at the adverts plastered all over it what the real motive was. It's not H&S, it's a spin in order to keep sponsors happy. This year attendences have been nothing short of woeful. If the top brass (Cooney please just resign) continue to alienate their own people by treating them as customers, then they won't have to worry about pitch celebrations, because there will be nobody in the grounds to enter the field.

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 19/08/2010 16:37:50    750726

yes its all about money and profit !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 19/08/2010 16:52:25    750746

Srb,are you talking to yourself? What part of what Kat wrote did you misinterpret?

caughtredhanded (Tyrone) - Posts: 602 - 19/08/2010 17:05:38    750756