why would you charge someone for going onto the pitch like hundreds of thousands have done before with out injury

it's ok for people to go onto the pitch and leave at U2 concerts


you are totally OTT in your fears

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 14/08/2010 13:22:34    745975

RiceysBrother
County: Tyrone

they have now worringly taken measures to use "Netural Supporters" in the FIRST FOUR ROWS around the rest of the stadium as "HUMAN SHIELDS" to stop the supporters behind them from coming forward to make their way onto the pitch. Why should these paying customers be used as a HUMAN SHIELD, Where is the health & safety of these patrons taken into account in this wonderful masterplan??

There wont be anyone used as human shields. The people in the first 4 rows will be in their seats. The people behind them, if they wish to attempt a pitch invasion are hardly gonna climb over them in their march towards the pitch, they will use the aisles. The GAA will be hoping that, as most invasions happen when the people at the front go onto the field and the rest follow like sheep, maybe by doing this, everyone might just wait in their seats. Its not bad thinking actually. And even if a few idiots do try and get on, the people in the front 4 rows will be in no danger

redandgreen (None) - Posts: 691 - 14/08/2010 13:32:51    745982

steamed onto that pitch three times in my days as a Tyrone fan best memory of GAA ever is being one of the first over to congratulate Philly Jordan after we beat Armagh at Croke, I fell sorry for people that will be denied that chance. Only hit one wee lassie from Armagh a clip on my way onto the pitch no harm dome

CheFinny (UK) - Posts: 1358 - 14/08/2010 15:23:26    746055

12/08/2010 11:28:04
yew_tree
County: Mayo
Posts: 1476

743950 there was never an issue with fans on the pitch until the last few years by where ireland has become an overhyped health and safety republic where before long everyone will be walking around wrapped in cotton wool.

Cotton Wool !!! Thats far to unsafe. Bubble wrap would be a much safer option. Jees talk about safety hazard.

shnappy (Wexford) - Posts: 220 - 14/08/2010 15:30:43    746061

It's a complete nonsense in trying to keep people off the field in my opinion. Every argument the suits have put forward are complete red-herrings, the real reason of all this is money, namely getting sponsors logos on some dopey platform on the middle of the field. Thne Jones' Road argument is nonsense. There is a tunnell at corner of Cuack and Canal that people could exit by that leads out to Cusack concourse (yes I know the ref's room is there but also there is referee's room under Hogan.) The collapsed supporter/ambulance story of few weeks ago actually happened in Jury's Hotel, not Croke Park, again a bending of the truth to 'suit' an agenda.
As been put forward by many people (Mickey Harte yet again in Friday's Irish News for one), the simple solution is for a 5 minute window to allow players the chance to recover, make their way to the presentation area where the losing team can also assemble, the players have time to congratulate/commiserate one another, then let fans onto the field where a cordon of stewards etc create a defined space where people can take part in a pitch celebration safely.
When it's time to go, encourage people to use all exit routes (gates at bottom of all isles including hill gates, emergency exit on Jones' Road and tunnell at Cusack/Canal corner) in order to ensure a bottleneck doesn't develop. This means no crush either before (people know they will get on so no need to use a mass surge of brute force to break through the line of storm-troopers etc at front) or after (patrons exiting stadium at different areas so no build-up at one zone), perhaps you could call this health and safety meets tradition and common sense.

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 14/08/2010 16:24:06    746095

Joe Brolly wrote an excellent article on this issue in this weeks Gaelic Life..

According to Joe, " Hill 16 being fenced in is contrary to the recommendations set out in the Taylor report." For those who don't know anything about the Taylor report, this report basically drew up recommendations in the aftermath of Hillsborough. This report actually suggested that the fence around the terrace in Hillsborough contributed to the disaster. Since then every major soccer ground in England has no fencing around it.

So why is the GAA in the year of 2010 erecting a fence around Hill 16. Health and Safety supposedly, I don't think so.
The other 2 disasters that the GAA top brass like to throw back at us in their argument for a fence bare no connection with this debate at all.

1. The Ibrox Disaster - this was caused by the collapse of an outdated stairway
2 Heysel Disaster - this was caused when a wall collapsed due the pressure of fans trying to escape riots

What is the real issue here?????

No.15 (Down) - Posts: 193 - 14/08/2010 21:51:50    746293

The issue here is simple, money and a shower of ----- trying to assert their author-it-tay. You do know we are customers and not fans anymore dont ya?

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 15/08/2010 12:43:15    746369

what's remarkable is the posters who are so trenchant in their views on this issue, in light of the fact that's there has been no serious injuries after well over 1,000,000 people having made their way onto the pitch over the last 100 years or so.


posters getting whipped up into a frenzy is something that they need to address themselves but why is gaa top brass so animated with the issue.

I believe that if they were straight up about the issue it would be resolved.
If it's because of insurance premiums then deal with that! If it's to gain extra sponsership money from an on pitch presentation then lets hear it, but having all this hype and outrage about something that has happened since our organisation was founded, through the Thousands of games with mixed supporters with little incident is perplexing. the worst thing to happen regarding pitch invasions in recent years was the Louth incidents and it resembled a bunch of middle aged angry ants trying to dance the sugar plum fairy or a badly coreographed wrestling bout where the fighting just didn't convince people that it was real.

it's a non issue!

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 15/08/2010 13:58:13    746399

srb
County: Antrim

As been put forward by many people (Mickey Harte yet again in Friday's Irish News for one), the simple solution is for a 5 minute window to allow players the chance to recover, make their way to the presentation area where the losing team can also assemble, the players have time to congratulate/commiserate one another, then let fans onto the field where a cordon of stewards etc create a defined space where people can take part in a pitch celebration safely.

Ha ha that would really work alright. You can imagine the poor stewards trying to reason with people just to hang on for 5 minutes til the players commiserate with each other. Have you never seen the type of ignoramouses who burst onto the field? The type of people who will do the exact opposite of what the stewards tell them to do, just to "rebel". If a steward told these type of people to hold on for five minutes they would be told in no uncertain terms to F off and to "get out of my f***in way, im entitled to celebrate on the field, blah blah blah....."

People can celebrate in the stands like they do in every other sport. Its an absolute nonsense this craic of going onto the field. People only wanna do it coz theyre not allowed to

redandgreen (None) - Posts: 691 - 15/08/2010 14:52:18    746415

I don't think people do it purely because they are not allowed to. It's a matter of tradition, of people feeling they really belong to something and are part of the overall occasion, that's what is supposed to set the GAA apart and what is really at threat here. The suits are merely trying to justify their wage on this one cos they have nothing better to do, simples. We could go down the route people in the stands and players dancing on the corporate advertisement plastered stage soccer style but that would be a shame. Why could the suits not have went for compromise rather than conflict. It's a sad state of affairs that you can only go onto the field when U2 or some other crowd play there, but try doing it when your county wins an AI and you are a criminal. The world has gone mad.

srb (Antrim) - Posts: 344 - 15/08/2010 16:02:29    746448

There simply is no way of organising a safe way for 20,000 people to come down from the stands to the pitch in a matter of minutes. Pitch invasions happen when euphoria takes over and all order has gone out the window. 20,000 all trying to get onto the field at the same time and as quickly as possible is highly dangerous. Everyone knows this. There is no reason why people cant celebrate perfectly well in the stands. No need to go on the field at all

redandgreen (None) - Posts: 691 - 15/08/2010 17:00:03    746475

I really don't see the need for all this. Pitch invasions at the end of the game has been a part of GAA culture for decades. It has happened at least twice a year every year. Look at an episode of 'Reeling in the Years' or archival footage on TG4 or photographs of old - invading the pitch has been done forever.

And in all that time, how many injuries or fatalities have been recorded? How many times has crowd control, or even the lack of, caused huge problems at the end of a game?

If you ask me, this has all been exacerbated by the Meath/Louth incident where a handful of gurriers (who I believe do not represent Louth fans in general) went after the ref

Now we're talking about 9 foot fences on the Hill. When those fences are in place and you think back to Hillsborough, it's enough to send a shiver down your spine

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 16/08/2010 10:33:16    746827

The position of the barriers on the Hill are situated in such a way as to prevent a large scale crush from the top of the terrace to the bottom of the terrace against the fence.

Pitch invasions are a disaster waiting to happen and credit the Gaa for saying enough is enough and doin something about it. We were the 1st county to win Sam and we'll be the 1st county to celebrate winning an All_ireland where a team gets to receive the cup on the pitch and do as many laps of honour as they wish.

People will see that this is actually a better way to celebrate and the culture of pitch invasions will be changed for ever.

derfil1 (Kildare) - Posts: 1612 - 16/08/2010 10:55:56    746845

[Culchie wrote:
Hurling Lad, I'd have to disagree slightly. I suspect that the GAA and the insurance companies are NOT actually primarily concerned about peoples safety. They are more concerned about claims (and consequential higher premiums) which may arise as a result of pitch invasions. I think most of us could agree that compensation claims do not always arise as a result of REAL injury.

You asked if we should wait for somebody to be seriously injured before erecting a fence. I don't think we should. But niether should we erect a fence simply because somebody might, someday, be injured. We should establish the risk of injury by looking at the very many years of data on pitch invasions that are available to us. If the risk is high, then certainly the fence, or any other appropriate H&S measures, should be applied. I don't call that ignorance - I call it reason.

To suggest that a fence should be erected because there is a risk of injury to somebody, is like suggesting that the road should be closed because somebody might crash. It's all about the size of the risk. Nobody can deny its existance. ]

The analogy with closing a road is not valid. Roads are designed to facilitate cars driving on them and Croke park is designed to facilitate the playing and watching of games. A better analogy for pitch invasions in Croke park would be the 'Drifting' that many boy-racers indulge in on some of our quieter roads - public roads are not designed for drifting in the same way that Croke park is not designed for pitch invasions and both activities involve unacceptable risks of injury and fatality if things get out of control.

At the end of an All-Ireland final, the GAA, along with the Gardaí, are responsible for regulating the safe flow around and through the stadium of over 80,000 people and they have to make decisions to ensure everyone's safety. Two points seem fairly clear wrt. pitch invasions - 1) Croke park was not designed to facilitate pitch invasions (if it was all supporters' "right" to go onto the pitch after a game there would surely be a facility for allowing people from the upper tiers access to the pitch) and 2) the GAA and Gardaí do not have adequate control over the flows of people before, during or after pitch invasions that they require to ensure everyone's safety.

It is certainly the case that you can't legislate for all risks and there has to be consideration of the level of risk involved in an activity in relation to the potential benefits of that activity. While it is clear from this discussion that most individual supporters of a potential All-Ireland winning team would consider the benefits of getting on to the pitch to outweigh the risks to themselves or others in doing so, the Croke park authorities cannot look at the Risk/Benefit scenario in these terms.
Their primary consideration has to be the safety of all spectators and I would support them in all measures they deem necessary to ensure such safety.

hurling_lad (Cork) - Posts: 69 - 16/08/2010 13:03:50    747007

Both the probability of occurance and the consequences of such a crushing accident are high enough to warrant this action by the Croke Park. A few posters have already mentioned occasions where they've witnessed 'close calls' which could have ended in tragedy on a different day. Smart people learn from their own mistakes but the smartest people learn from other peoples mistakes. This HAS happened before in soccer stadiums in both South America and Asia where pitch invasions have led to tragedy. Is this the standard of organisation we are at? I'm sure that the under writers have demanded higher standards of safety but the most damaging aspect of any tragedy apart from the human loss is the negative PR which takes years to rebuild. Our soccer and rugby counterparts would be well within their rights to brand us as a shower of amateurs if we do not act on this issue.This same cavalier attitude towards risk (albeit business risk) has left us with the "Gombeens of Europe" tag, yet again. And I don't mind people disagreeing with my view as it is alot easier to leave things as they are and let the fun continue. Personally, I don't want my grandchildren to watch clips of the 2013 All-Ireland Disaster on Reeling in the Years.

Common sense will prevail on this issue I have no doubt and the day of pitch invasions will be a thing of the past. Yes, I think that it is sad that a GAA tradition will be lost, not that I've involved in many! But, things do change and thats a fact of life. Those who are slow to change will just have to be dragged along by the rest of us, kicking, fecking and cursing.

Con Cavan (Cavan) - Posts: 894 - 16/08/2010 16:05:13    747243

the Gombeens of Europe


most people in europe would find it hard to find Dublin much less croke park, the only people concerned with pitch invasions are on this forum, i doubt that many non GAA people accross europe are reading this with the exception of a few people looking for the Milk festival and looking for a different type of GAA Website

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 16/08/2010 16:21:18    747268

ochonlir
County: Cavan
Posts: 1453

747268
the Gombeens of Europe


most people in europe would find it hard to find Dublin much less croke park, the only people concerned with pitch invasions are on this forum, i doubt that many non GAA people accross europe are reading this with the exception of a few people looking for the Milk festival and looking for a different type of GAA Website

_________________________

I've been suitably chastened , yet again. Gob bless you.

Con Cavan (Cavan) - Posts: 894 - 16/08/2010 16:40:24    747294

Thanks, your visit to the Milk festival is now in doubt no?

ochonlir (Cavan) - Posts: 4343 - 16/08/2010 16:44:22    747302

It's a catch 22 isn't it? If you allow pitch invasions to continue, someone could get hurt. But if you fence people in, you run the risk of a Hillsborough type disaster. I can't remember the specifics, but does anyone remember early in the Noughties I think, it was a double header in Croker in the Leinster championship and the Hogan Stand got overcrowded for some reason, so much so, stewards had to direct fans out of the Hogan around the sideline and over to the Cusack? It was very calmly & professionally dealt with, but can you imagine what could have happened, had they been fenced in?

Regarding the comments above about suing the GAA should something happen on a pitch invasion, the technical albeit cold solution to that is for the GAA to input it into the ticket terms & conditions, in other words, the GAA will not be held responsible for any injury you incur if you invade the pitch

gigoer (Wexford) - Posts: 1998 - 16/08/2010 16:44:51    747303

gigoer
County: Wexford
Posts: 13

747303
It's a catch 22 isn't it? If you allow pitch invasions to continue, someone could get hurt. But if you fence people in, you run the risk of a Hillsborough type disaster. I can't remember the specifics, but does anyone remember early in the Noughties I think, it was a double header in Croker in the Leinster championship and the Hogan Stand got overcrowded for some reason, so much so, stewards had to direct fans out of the Hogan around the sideline and over to the Cusack? It was very calmly & professionally dealt with, but can you imagine what could have happened, had they been fenced in?

Regarding the comments above about suing the GAA should something happen on a pitch invasion, the technical albeit cold solution to that is for the GAA to input it into the ticket terms & conditions, in other words, the GAA will not be held responsible for any injury you incur if you invade the pitch
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Unfortunately such disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on. A disclaimer may act as a deterent to would-be plantiffs but Croke Park like any other venue has a 'duty of care' to its patrons under applicable legislation. Might be the SHWW Act 2005, but not sure

Con Cavan (Cavan) - Posts: 894 - 16/08/2010 16:50:49    747311