Don't mean to rub salt into thurlesblues wounds, but Tipp also went from 1974 to 1983 without winning any championship game at all. I was there in 1983 when they finally won a game & overcame Clare by 2-11 to 1-11. The closest they got to a win in that time was 1981 when they led Limerick by 3-8 to 0-4 at one stage in the second half, only for Big Joe McKenna to score 4-1 and earn us a 4-10 to 3-13 draw. We saw them off in the replay 3-17 to 2-12.

So while the whole winning an all-Ireland every decade is some achievement, so too is the 74-83 feat. I've great admiration for what Tipp have given to hurling, but I still think Cork & Kilkenny are ahead traditionally.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6526 - 09/08/2010 14:40:13    740868

Icehonesty

You are entitled to your opinion on Cork but to say that you have reserved judgement on Cork until yesterday is an absolute fabrication. You have as you said in one of your posts that you have always disliked Cork and you have argued against them for a couple of years. How then can you say you have reserved judgement on them? I can understand that you do not like Cork and that the strike upset you. That is all fair enough and you have at least admitted that you are happy that Cork lost. That is fine too. However, to say that Cork would have been better under Gerald McCarthy, in my opinion (and I am entitled to mine as well) is wrong (in my opinion)

If Cork appeared to play better under Gerald McCarthy then it was a mirage. If they played well it was because the senior panel members ran the team, motivated the team. Essentially, they would have played the very same way if I was in charge of the team (I am a half decent under 12 coach as it happens- though self praise is no praise I realize). Gerald McCarthy never wanted to be in charge of the Cork team despite what he said in the media. Of course you will probably dispute that but you would be wrong.

Finally, I do not know how much of a GAA person you are, however, if I am honest, I think that this thread is totally inappropriate after what happened yesterday. You might hate a certain few Cork players (and as I said, no problem with that with me) but there is little difference between GAA people in any county, we are all pretty much the same, we play and promote the games that we love. Yesterday, our county team got an almighty hiding in Croke Park and we, as a result, are very down today. But we will get over it. What is not nice to see is people goading us and dragging up issues from a few years ago (that we all wnat to forget) when we are down. That shows a lack of class on your part. You could have chosen a different moment.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 09/08/2010 18:10:35    741148

If they played well it was because the senior panel members ran the team, motivated the team.

The same players are still there now.... so is Denis Walsh to blame then??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 09/08/2010 18:58:35    741210

Today is not a time for gloating at the defeat of Cork. Posters should admire the tenacity and character of these Cork players who have endured and tried their best often in difficult circumstances to bring honour to their county.

Every county that takes to the field in Croke Park on All Ireland Semi Final day does the same... their best. I admire and respect all of their players especially all the older players who have been there since 1999. Yesterday they came up against a superb well drilled and highly motivated Kilkenny team.

To compare these Cork players with a team coached by Gerald McCarthy is unfair to the players and their efforts and also to Denis Walsh who will in time I believe bring Coork hurlers back to compete with the best. Cork have after all this year beaten a fancied Tip team and it took Waterford a replay and extra time to beat them!

I for one admire Cork hurlers and their passion and their skill and it is always a pleasure to watch them play.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1882 - 09/08/2010 19:04:21    741221

Cork and Denis Walsh, if he his still manager, must do two things: 1. Change their style of play; they will never beat Kilkenny with the running, short passing game, it just plays into their hands. I cant understand the Cork backs passing a ball 20 yards across the pitch when they could deliver it 100 yards with one puck. They did this several times on Sunday and were caught out every time. 2. I think it is time they got rid of all those players involved in the strike and start afresh. There is too much baggage there and i still think they are too big an influence on the team and this is not working. It might take a few years to get back up there but it will be worth it.

MARNELL (Westmeath) - Posts: 728 - 09/08/2010 19:27:35    741265

I said last year and also before the cork game i don't see much difference in walsh's tactic's to mcCarthy's only difference is aiske.... walsh needs to put his own stamp on the team get some new blood.

To be honest i thought he was going to do this beginning when he moved gardnier to midfield and kenny to wingback in a few games it seemed to work well but soon reverted back to the old way of playing.... what has walsh done differently??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 09/08/2010 19:31:21    741272

Seeing Cork yesterday it's clear they probably need a clear out.

I'm biased, but if Limerick can really get their act together, or if Clare can nurture their U21's, anyone is capable of winning Munster next year. The sides are all pretty even & it's there for the taking.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6526 - 09/08/2010 19:50:39    741299

Gerald drop players that where not up to it as he wanted to bring in fresh faces and there buddies went mad and bet now they wish they kept him.

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 09/08/2010 19:56:42    741309

but if Limerick can really get their act together

Slayer Limerick have a lot of work to do yet of all the players that were dropped I think only two should be back on the panel (that dosen't include the lads that walked off in support) is there much comming throught in limerick.... I wasn't overly impressed with clares u21 they've maybe 4 players that will make it at senior and honan needs to learn how to work harder... if he not given the right ball he won't do much. T

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 09/08/2010 20:00:22    741317

Bennybunny- the points you make are good. And we had some good arguments over the strike when it was on. You know where I stood on it.

What I reserved judgement on was how Cork have played since. Yesterday was the big test as to whether they had been right to get rid of Gerald or wrong. Now I know you have more in-depth knowledge being based in Cork. But, from where I am standing, they got rid of the manager primarily because they felt that he was a bad manager. There were several leaks to the media over him getting players names mixed up, his training sessions being poor etc. Ok. So I waited to see what Denis Walsh would do. I didnt really mark him out as a bad manager at any point since he was appointed. I waited to see if the players new man would be the super-professional hurling genius the players felt they deserved. And in my opinion, he's worse. Denis Walsh tried his best but they dont look to have improved at all. They've gotten worse. And as I said already in this thread, saying players are too old isnt correct as other Cork posters have pointed out that only Cusack, Halpin and the O'Connors are over 30.

Look, they said that Gerald was the thing in their way from matching Kilkenny. They got their way and he was gone. A new man came who they gave the thumbs up to. Now they had everything they needed they said. And they're further away than they've ever been??? Can't you say now that in retrospect they were a bit wrong in what they did from a hurling point of view? (Aside from structural issues at county board level.)

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2581 - 09/08/2010 21:55:34    741454

icehonesty Have you considered the possibility that Kilkenny have actually improved.

dellboy You do have a tendancy to make some pretty strange posts, your last one on this thread is an absolute beaut.

Anyone on here give any credit to Cork for continuing to play good attractive hurling and score a string of lovely points despite being clearly outplayed and heading for a certain defeat.

corkcelt (Cork) - Posts: 4388 - 10/08/2010 09:47:52    741503

Anyone on here give any credit to Cork for continuing to play good attractive hurling and score a string of lovely points despite being clearly outplayed and heading for a certain defeat.

Of course Corkcelt, especially Pat Horgan who played on until the bitter end a bit like John Mullane in 2008.

But a lot of people are still unhappy over Cork's 2009 strike and wanted to see Cork get what they thought was coming to them. I'm not one of those, I would have liked a closer contest, but you would have to say why did Cork not start the match the way they finished it? They outscored Kilkenny 14 scores to 7 in the last 20 minutes so other than Kilkenny pulling up, I'd ask why they couldn't have started like that.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6526 - 10/08/2010 11:04:15    741588

The sad fact from our point of view is that, while everyone is suggesting we have a clear out, can anybody practically talk about the players we are going to bring in. To be fair to Denis Walsh, he has given a number of guys that Gerald McCarthy brought in a go. In fact, he gave Cian McCarthy a go on Sunday and he did not play well. I would not write off McCarthy yet and would love to see him get another chance.

The reality is, and I am not hiding from the fact that Cork are not improving, but Kilkenny have improved massively since 2008. As an awful lot of other posters have said, they seem to be getting better with age and they are likely to win six, seven, eight, fifteen in a row at this stage. The last few years have been terrible for Cork and our road to recovery as Sean Og said is going to be long, very, very long. My friend said to me yesterday that Cork hurling is low now that he finds himself being a Tipp supporter (we have a good rivalry with Tipp and respect them but should not really be supporting them)

That said, as poor as we have been this year we have matched all of the other contenders for the championship. We were terrible against Waterford yet could have won, we beat Tipp convincingly, we are no match for Kilkenny. That does not bode well for the other teams. Though hopefully Sheedy and Davy Fitz can look at the Cork match and try to put right all of the things that we did wrong.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 10/08/2010 11:16:33    741615

Kilkenny were indeed pulling up, thats why !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/08/2010 11:17:36    741617

Players were thinking of the final, didn't want to get injured or sent off, game was over by then.

nok02 (USA) - Posts: 534 - 10/08/2010 11:26:20    741629

"But a lot of people are still unhappy over Cork's 2009 strike and wanted to see Cork get what they thought was coming to them"

Just wondering, Slayer, if the same will apply to some of Limerick's "striking" hurlers if they return to the fold in 2011?

football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 10/08/2010 11:47:42    741652

That said, as poor as we have been this year we have matched all of the other contenders for the championship. We were terrible against Waterford yet could have won, we beat Tipp convincingly, we are no match for Kilkenny. That does not bode well for the other teams. Though hopefully Sheedy and Davy Fitz can look at the Cork match and try to put right all of the things that we did wrong.

I'm not sure about that. Cork beat a poor Limerick team and when David Breen was moved to full back from the half forward line & was still able to shackle Aisake, it didn't bode well. Cork of course were fantastic against Tipp, but were all these rumours about a training session the day before that game true? Waterford don't have a great record of beating Cork in Munster finals, and I thought they were far superior to Cork in extra time. Against Antrim, at times Antrim had the freedom of the park & Watson in particular made Cork's backs look very ordinary. So I would not agree that Cork have matched all the championship contenders bar Kilkenny.

As for it not boding well for other teams, I disagree also. Cork's tactics were suicidal on Sunday. They pucked every ball for the first 15 minutes into Kilkenny's half back line where they won nothing. Someone complained on here about Cork playing the short running game but I think it is the ONLY way Cork can beat Kilkenny with these players. Deny them the ball. I think A full strength Limerick, Clare, Waterford or Tipp would give Kilkenny a better game than Cork. These sides are direct, their half forward lines will compete better and they can make the ball stick in the forward lines. But Limerick & Clare are not skilful enough to beat Kilkenny, but as both teams play solid combative hurling, they would challenge on that front.

In 2009 Tipp's intensity in the semi final was savage. They hit Limerick with everything & in the final they did the same. That makes me think they have a chance of winning the final. If Waterford get there and play the corner forwards withdrawn like they did V Cork, they will be well beaten. I think to beat Kilkenny you need an approach like Cork in the 2004 All-Ireland or Waterford in the 2007 NHL final, where you take short puck outs & have supreme confidence in your ability to keep the ball, OR you play a 15 V 15 game like Tipp did last year, hit them hard make them spill it, but you MUST concentrate for 70 minutes & not give up goals.

Cork being no match for them doesn't for me mean Kilkenny are that far in front, I think it is more a reflection on Cork than the other teams to be honest. I still think Kilkenny CAN be beaten, but to do so Tipp/Waterford would need to have the game of their lives and be prepared to get hurt.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6526 - 10/08/2010 11:55:19    741666

Just wondering, Slayer, if the same will apply to some of Limerick's "striking" hurlers if they return to the fold in 2011?

Yes, I think you are right. I think people all over Ireland are sick of players 'withdrawing their services' from GAA teams. Kilkenny haven't done it, Tipp didn't do it in 2007 when the players clearly wanted Babs out & I respect the likes of Cummins & Kelly who soldiered on despite being on the bench for a lot of the season. I'm all for players being treated with respect but I don't advocate strikes & find it hard to agree with them under any circumstances.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6526 - 10/08/2010 11:59:23    741679

Id have to agree with you on a lot of what you say there Slayer. In my opinion Cork looked to be sort of up for the game for about 10 minutes but when they realised they werent as well prepared they caved in. To match Kilkenny you need to have huge intensity and workrate. Kilkenny bring this every day which is why I respect them so much. I actually think that the Clare team of Loughnane (mid-90's) is the sort of team Kilkenny would hate to play against. Someone who is in their faces for the full 70 minutes and horses into them from the start. Cork's attitude wasn't what it could have been on Sunday and the handy points they hit after Kilkenny had gone home have clouded people's minds of this fact. I think both Tipp and Waterford have it in them to produce one big game of that sort this year, it will just unfortunately be against each other this Sunday. Its all about workrate against Kilkenny- KK make hurling look easy, but its an easy game when youre always first to the ball.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2581 - 10/08/2010 16:16:46    742245

Slayer.

You are right in an awful lot of what you said (you are possibly the most knowledgeable hurling poster on here, one of them anyway). Cork's tactics were indeed suicidal on Sunday and a lot of lads (I don't want to mention their names) seemed to give up which is disappointing in the extreme and some of them might consider their futures. That is a different issue (and by the way I am not talking about Donal Og here as he has been our best performer for the last two years and I hope he stays for another 10 - one mistake on Sunday aside). I also feel that Kilkenny are beatable, everybody must believe that or else we do not have a championship. Cork are not the ones to do it at present, that is clear.

However, I still say that Cork have matched the other contenders. For example, in my first post I said that Cork were terrible against Waterford and then you said that Waterford were much better than Cork in extra time. I would add they wre better at all times in both games, yet it still took them a replay and extra time and a goal on wet night under lights to beat a Cork team that were very very poor. My point is that Cork, who are poor, could still have beaten them with a bit of luck even when Waterford were playing very well. That is why I fear for them. Cork were very good against Tipp, but of course there are those rumours of training etc the day before. Maybe, however, I think Tipp, if those rumours are true may have taken a huge gamble, one that might not pay off. Time will tell so cant really comment on that now.

Hard to make too many comments on the Limerick and Antrim games.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 10/08/2010 18:08:53    742500