hurlinspuds
County: Cork
Posts: 428

751001 Sorry dhorse, I wasn't clear. I meant nobody on this forum is advocating violence. I was stating the obvious really.


No worries. I wouldn't be 100% sure of nobody on this forum advocating violence however.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 19/08/2010 21:10:53    751021

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2345

750927 will repeat once again that I and others believe that an all-ireland economy is much more viable and will be more productive in the immediate long term

ha aha haha hahahahahaha....

Bertie is that you? get back to the Dail...

as for your idea of handing out the begging bowl to the EU, US and Britain.....

I don't get it bad monkey. What has bertie got to do with the price of cabbage??? Are you going to enlighten us as to why the EU, US and Britain playing a part in reunification is such a silly argument??? I think Britain paying is the least they could do. There is argument for lots of African states to stop receicing "aid" and start receising reparations for what was (is?!) done to them. Libya has already been paid such money.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 19/08/2010 21:32:19    751050

hurlinspuds
County: Cork
Posts: 429

750926 dhorse, I don't think anyone said that they wanted to see it happen whatever the consequences. Nobody is advocating violence.

While I agree that a fuller picture would have to be given to the electorate I think we're stepping into unknown ground. Nobody fully knows the consequences. I would hope that the people who would be likely to cause the violence - loyalist paras - would be and indeed are already(?) (maybe a northerner would have a more informed opinion on this??) sufficiently weakened to cause substantial violence.

Agreed. Its the fuller picture that we are all asking for!

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 08:31:55    751113

hurlinspuds
County: Cork
Posts: 429

751050 bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2345

750927 will repeat once again that I and others believe that an all-ireland economy is much more viable and will be more productive in the immediate long term

ha aha haha hahahahahaha....

Bertie is that you? get back to the Dail...

as for your idea of handing out the begging bowl to the EU, US and Britain.....

I don't get it bad monkey. What has bertie got to do with the price of cabbage??? Are you going to enlighten us as to why the EU, US and Britain playing a part in reunification is such a silly argument??? I think Britain paying is the least they could do. There is argument for lots of African states to stop receicing "aid" and start receising reparations for what was (is?!) done to them. Libya has already been paid such money.

I wrote a response on the extent of the financial assistance the EU,US,UK could potentially provide and their motivations in doing so previously but for some reason it was censored. So heres an abridged version;
The EU: How much money did the EU give to NI? Euro 2.5bn 1987-2007. Not a massive sum is it? How much have they pledged, because you are right they do support NI. In the words of the EU president Jose Manuel Barroso 01/05/07 at Parliament buildings " The EU is providing well over Euro 1bn from 2007-2013....we now need to make sure it gets to the right places.....I want to offer my personal commitment and support to the re-establishment of the NI assembly and executive".
Euro 1bn, less than 1.5% of the republics national debt over 6 years, and from his comments its clear that furthering a united Ireland agenda isnt what his vision for the future of Europes involvement is, given that the speech was to both unionist and nationalists.
The US: Why was the US such a supporter of Israel. What sort of support did it give Israel. Was it for purely idealogical reasons? Considering the ties of many Americans to ireland would the same support be forthcoming with a united Ireland on the table?
Israel and the US worked together to counter the greatest threats to American interests in the Middle East. At a time when the soviets were courting all Arab nations in particular Egypt, the US was keen to gain a foothold in the middle east and was the first country to recognise Israel as a state. These threats included the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction by rogue regimes or communist sympathising regimes; state-sponsored terrorism; the potential disruption of access to Middle East oil; and the spread of Islamic radicalism. Over half of all aid given to Israel was military aid (the washington report on middle eastern affairs). This is not so much ideological as vested interests. What about from Israeli Americans? the largest figure from this group in any year was $80m. What does a united Ireland offer the US? Where will $80m from Irish Americans go in ironing out all the problems?
They'll all want to lend a hand, but if you think the serious funding is going to come from these corners then your mistaken.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 08:44:09    751114

You are absolutely right about who will pay for reunification hurlinspuds,and whats more more the British government would have no problem dishing it out to be shot of the north.The Eu will contribute also in a benevolent and financial capacity and the US will weigh in heavily with investment money.This has all been agreed already lads.Its all part of the end game in the north.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 20/08/2010 08:48:22    751117

Speaking lads as probally the only Ulster protestant on the board this is the way i've read things over the past lot of years,not in any particulr order,listening to Fitzgerald Bruton and Ahearn i started thinking that these people were not to aggresive and alien towards northern protestants and i was interested genuinely interested in what they had to say.Along came the good Friday agreement and the removal of articles 2&3 and the republic seemed a lot more user friendly towards the north.In hindsight the shinners play a very astute game with their dramatic change of policies,i've even heard loads of protestants complementing Martin Maginness on the professional job that he does,more so than any other MLA,unionist or nationalist.

This past year or so we have had a renewed threat from the dissidents and i can honestly see unionist opinions harden again by the day,they really are living in cloud cuckoo land if they believe the they are going to unite Ireland that way.Just to sum up guys i feel that most unionists accept that there will be eventually a united Ireland but it will never be achieved through violence.

jackieblue (Antrim) - Posts: 521 - 20/08/2010 09:16:31    751124

Corrxxx enjoyed your last post and I take on board your points regarding the US. I guess we can speculate all day, I believe others countries and entities will financially support the re-unification of Ireland if there is a majority vote for it, you disagree.

We'll just have to wait and see I suppose!

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 20/08/2010 09:49:16    751148

Forcing a million people to share nationality with me just because a few more than that want them to is not really on my agenda to the same extent as some people.

Do you really expect the unionists to say "ok lads theres more of them than us now lets form a united Ireland".

Oh so the Unionists dont want it, that's ok dhorse, I guess us Nationalists will roll over and accept the fact that we're not allowed self-determination even when we're in the majority. I note you're not such a strong advocate for the Nationalist people in the North who are forced to share a nationality they dont accept.

With all due respect to the Unionists, they've been given a false position of privledge for approaching 100 years now. Whether they like it or not they will have to accept that they are a minority on the island as a whole. They will soon be a minority in the 6 counties, albeit a very sizeable one. Time to face the reality.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 20/08/2010 09:57:02    751158

Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 458

Again you and other posters have used the economic argument ad nauseam as the main reason why it cannot happen. I will repeat once again that I and others believe that an all-ireland economy is much more viable and will be more productive in the immediate long term. If this is not the case can you explain why the govt of the ROI is already paying millions of Euro for roads to be built in Northern Ireland?

In the long term yes, possibly it could be more viable, Im not arguing it wouldnt, LONG TERM. Solar,wind,wave energy are more viable than fossil fuels in the long term, we will eventually have to move that way, however at the moment companies and nations invest little in these technolgies because these things dont just happen overnight. As I said before, just because it should happen, doesnt mean it WILL happen. At least not in the short term.

The reason for the road building? ireland has a vested interest in strong economic ties with the North. If the north was filled with eskimoes (Im not being facetious) who had no cultural ties with the republic it would still be in our interest to have favourable trade conditions (infrastructure) with the north. Many of the roads you refer to tie in with Irish roads. The proposed A5 would not only improve travel conditions from Derry to Dublin but also from north donegal to Dublin.
It is interesting to note about the funding though.
1. It is covered by the NDP 2007-2013, which had grand visions for the improvement of infrastructure in Ireland. This was dreamt up in Jan 2007 just before any mention of a "Recession". Since then the funding for infrastructure has been cut from 39.6bn to 22.9bn. Some projects in the north have been completed already but there are others to even start. The Irish government promised 400m towards the 843m required. Thus far only 9m has been paid. Though they have committed to finishing it. With the number of Irish infrastructure jobs currently shelved I wouldnt hold out too much hope for more money from the south for roads.

In summary, pre-recession we had great visions for a united Ireland, we had loads of money and were looking towards the future, so we gave money for roads in the north. Now we are broke, we cant even build our own roads.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 10:01:01    751163

Jackieblue you are the man we have been looking for!We should start up a new rejuvenated Society of United Irishmen! Seriously though it is great to have you on the forum and I understand your concerns about dissident republicans.I can only say I hope they are persuaded to take the olive branch that is being offered them right now by fellow republicans and the British government.Armed conflict must remain in the past now.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 20/08/2010 10:06:33    751173

Goodfella,Britain or Ireland no longer have self determination,Europe dictates now how both are governed.

jackieblue (Antrim) - Posts: 521 - 20/08/2010 10:12:01    751180

Couldn't agree more Seanie_Boy great to have somebody like jackieblue on this forum, and great to hear his views on this highly sensitive topic.

gilly0512 (Galway) - Posts: 1176 - 20/08/2010 10:12:38    751182

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 502

751117 You are absolutely right about who will pay for reunification hurlinspuds,and whats more more the British government would have no problem dishing it out to be shot of the north.The Eu will contribute also in a benevolent and financial capacity and the US will weigh in heavily with investment money.This has all been agreed already lads.Its all part of the end game in the north.

Who agreed this already? Has the US government set up a covert task force for the allocation of untraceable funds for their number 1 priority "the unification of a small island player somewhere in the north atlantic" and told nobody about it.
The EU will benevolently ignore the financial crisis in Greece,Portugal, Spain and Ireland and post us a blank cheque?

We're not as big a priority to these people as you think. They had their day in the sun with the Good Friday Agreement and the success (thus far) with the peace process. there's no more votes to be won by throwing more cash towards Ireland.

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 10:12:59    751183

Goodfella, Tir
County: All
Posts: 460

751148 Corrxxx enjoyed your last post and I take on board your points regarding the US. I guess we can speculate all day, I believe others countries and entities will financially support the re-unification of Ireland if there is a majority vote for it, you disagree.

We'll just have to wait and see I suppose!

Agreed!

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 10:17:10    751185

'Hunger is a good cook' Corrxxx if they have to reach down the backs of their sofas to get it in spare change then thats what they will do.Like I said before its all part of 'the end game'.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 20/08/2010 10:24:35    751192

Corrxxx - interesting post there. Surely the EU cannot allow Ireland to have as big a deficit as all that?! I mean we're pushing it as is.

Jackie blue - just to reiterate that it's great to have you on the forum. I think dissident republicans are actually the main impediment to a united ireland at the moment.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 20/08/2010 10:35:04    751200

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 505

751192 'Hunger is a good cook' Corrxxx if they have to reach down the backs of their sofas to get it in spare change then thats what they will do.Like I said before its all part of 'the end game'.

Why will they "have to". They dont have to do anything!

What is the endgame?

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 10:43:21    751215

The "end game" was a term used alot around and just after the negotiations that produced the GFA.It refers to the idea that the GFA was a temporary step on the way to a United Ireland.Republicans accepted the compromise in the knowledge that a United Ireland was possible in the near future,and Unionists although unhappy about the British desire to get out of the north accepted it also to give their community the chance to get used to the idea through the process that has been ongoing since,cross border co-operation on roads,rivers,agriculture,ESB buying out NIE,these types of developments.The logical conclusion being a United Ireland brought about in a peaceful way,made possible by demographic changes and a Unionist warming to the Republic,as demonstrated by Jackieblue,and thus reflecting"the end game" between the UK and Ireland.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 20/08/2010 11:11:00    751248

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 506

751248 The "end game" was a term used alot around and just after the negotiations that produced the GFA.It refers to the idea that the GFA was a temporary step on the way to a United Ireland.Republicans accepted the compromise in the knowledge that a United Ireland was possible in the near future,and Unionists although unhappy about the British desire to get out of the north accepted it also to give their community the chance to get used to the idea through the process that has been ongoing since,cross border co-operation on roads,rivers,agriculture,ESB buying out NIE,these types of developments.The logical conclusion being a United Ireland brought about in a peaceful way,made possible by demographic changes and a Unionist warming to the Republic,as demonstrated by Jackieblue,and thus reflecting"the end game" between the UK and Ireland.

Have you got a spare pair of rose tinted glasses?

Corrxxx (Kerry) - Posts: 584 - 20/08/2010 11:57:26    751301

seanie_boy is correct, i've also heard of the political procees being referred to as the 'endgame'. I think there is a book or a documentary with a similar title.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 20/08/2010 13:26:40    751431