'merely making the point that as fiscal security is high on your priority that you would understand the concept of doing anything for money.'

Where did I say doing anything for money? In no circumstances is it okay to pass on knowledge or information in order to kill or maim which you have clearly stated is justified. I know a lot of people who work for the Civil Service, they have families to feed and bills to pay. They would not be happy giving up their only source of income for unemployment in a united Ireland. I think that is most definitely justified, the needs of their family come before their need for a united Ireland. If that makes them any less Irish then so be it, I'm sure they'd like to be in a position whereby they could give up their jobs and still survive

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/08/2010 13:54:19    745322

'Surely pomeroy you can't keep advocating here that we make such important choices based on greed alone.'

What's greedy about people wanting to keep their jobs and livelihoods exactly? Do you honestly view someone who is unwilling to give up their only source of income as being greedy? Utterly ridiculous statement to make

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/08/2010 13:59:48    745337

Badmonkey, I will refer you to the Saville report and the Ballymurphy massacre as a measure of the civilian targeting by the British Army. The Irish News today leads with the story of Majella O'Hare, 12 years old, shot by the British Army 34 years ago whilst walking to confessions. The soldier involved was acquitted of manslaughter having intimated that he was firing at a gunman. Yesterday the Historical Enquiries Team rubbished his story stating categorically that there was no gunman at the scene. The soldier fired a burst of 3 shots two of which hit Majella. First on the scene was her father who cradled his dying dayghter whilst British Soldiers verbally abused him. Aidan McAnespie, shot in the back from a distance of 300 yards by "accident", another civilian murdered by the army whose account was rubbished by the HET. Peter McBride, stopped and searched by two Scots Guards who let him go only to shoot him as he ran down the street. The list goes on. The British Army were directly responsible for 187 civilian deaths along with an unknown number of deaths due to collusion, including most likely those killen in Monagahan and Dublin in comparison to being responsible for 145 republican paramilitary deaths. What I think people have to accept is that the British Army should be held to a higher moral standard than a paramilitary force and I believe that they fell well below this standard on many occasions, and maybe to condemn all as terrorists is incorrect, but I would also suggest the same could be said of republicans.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 13/08/2010 14:10:27    745358

Pomeroy, big leaps to assuming job losses. A united ireland will only come about with the assistance of Europe and America and continued support from the UK. I don't see job losses in the event of unification. If anything the north will leave a stagnating economy which is giving the north less and less money to unify with a country which is pro EU, has a low corporate tax rate and a better chance of recovery but that's speaking in immediate terms. In my books reunification is a long while down the road so who knows what each economy will be like. I'm confident in my countrymen that we're going to come back and achieve again making ireland a strong place to do business. Nobody on here or anywhere else is suggesting that people should have to/need to/or will have to give up their jobs out of patriotism. I think it makes perfect sense that the island is united in going forward. Having said all of the above, show me where to sign on the dotted line and I'll happily give an extra 10% of my wages to assure a smooth transition. Pomeroy, I know you think I'm "ignorant" and "stupid" but that's how I view it.

As for bad monkey defending british soldiers in the north. "Terrorists target civilians (unbelievably simplistic on so many levels) soldiers do not (just plain wrong on so many occasions, are you joking???)."

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 13/08/2010 14:21:36    745368

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1184

745322 'merely making the point that as fiscal security is high on your priority that you would understand the concept of doing anything for money.'

Where did I say doing anything for money? In no circumstances is it okay to pass on knowledge or information in order to kill or maim which you have clearly stated is justified. I know a lot of people who work for the Civil Service, they have families to feed and bills to pay. They would not be happy giving up their only source of income for unemployment in a united Ireland. I think that is most definitely justified, the needs of their family come before their need for a united Ireland. If that makes them any less Irish then so be it, I'm sure they'd like to be in a position whereby they could give up their jobs and still survive

Justifying and empathising are two different concepts, something you clearly haven't grasped. Bearing in mind that any movement on sovereignty would be heavily subsidised by the EU. Britain and most likely America whose to say whether you would be unemployed or not? I also find it quite strange that you introduce a point I made in a totally unrelated thread and try to integrate it in this thread and actually equate the two to each other. As regards the civil service, your friends may find that being part of the UK may no longer be the gravy train it once was given the cuts that will soon be enforced. It is because of British rule that we have become a combined welfare/public sector basket case. 8 out of 10 people in the north claim not to be able to work, of the ones who can, 70% are employed by the state. The day is coming, and you should prepare for it, that Britain having drained whatever it could out of Ireland are plotting their withdrawal as the roles have become reversed and instead of stealing it now has to pay.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 13/08/2010 14:23:56    745370

So do you think everyone in the Republic in the midst of a recession would be happy to give 10% of their wages to incorporate N.I.? I read a report that it would cost every man, woman and child in the Republic £2000 a year each to accommodate N.I., do you think everyone would be fine with that? Sorry but I think to assume there will be zero job losses is extremely naive. If and when the Republic or whatever alliance of countries (who for whatever reason you feel would actually care enough to give financial aid) is in a position to financially support N.I. then by all means go for it but that day is a long, long way away

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/08/2010 15:01:44    745415

I wouldn't say the two threads are unrelated at all, this thread is about a united Ireland and the other thread I believe was about the Troubles. I would suggest that the two are inextricably linked. I do understand the difference between empathising and justifying, I just don't believe you with your feeble excuse. When you were first asked about it you said your quote was taken out of context, it was a few days later that you changed your tune and you were showing empathy. Like I said before people have hugely differing opinions on this sensitive subject but to not even have the courage to stick by your opinion is rather weak

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/08/2010 15:24:44    745445

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1187

745445 I wouldn't say the two threads are unrelated at all, this thread is about a united Ireland and the other thread I believe was about the Troubles. I would suggest that the two are inextricably linked. I do understand the difference between empathising and justifying, I just don't believe you with your feeble excuse. When you were first asked about it you said your quote was taken out of context, it was a few days later that you changed your tune and you were showing empathy. Like I said before people have hugely differing opinions on this sensitive subject but to not even have the courage to stick by your opinion is rather weak

I replied almost immediately to you on that thread. Then you and TA had an exchange and where you brought me back into it. I made the point that I had replied previous to this but admin had not allowed it, so I most certainly did not delay nor did I change my tune. As regards you believing me or not, like anyone your entitled to your opinion. I believe, as do a few others judging by their posts that I have defended my position that has not changed in any shape or form. It was you who brought the term justified into it. I never at any point mentioned justified. My direct quote was " If I was an explosives expert in PIRA, and I was now left on the dole or whatever, I could honestly say that I would consider "selling" my expertise as well. This is not to say it is correct" This is empathy not justification in my view, however you can decide what you like. Again I do not think that there was any correlation between my point on that thread and this one.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 13/08/2010 15:58:13    745495

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1187

745415 So do you think everyone in the Republic in the midst of a recession would be happy to give 10% of their wages to incorporate N.I.? I read a report that it would cost every man, woman and child in the Republic £2000 a year each to accommodate N.I., do you think everyone would be fine with that? Sorry but I think to assume there will be zero job losses is extremely naive. If and when the Republic or whatever alliance of countries (who for whatever reason you feel would actually care enough to give financial aid) is in a position to financially support N.I. then by all means go for it but that day is a long, long way away

In fairness Pomeroy you mentioned you are in University. Would you rather not put your University Education to good use and start/work in some form of sustainable private enterprise?

Have you any pride in yourself? you seem to desire to live on handouts from the Irish/British excheqeur. Surely you want more from Life then having to rely on handouts from other countries?

paddyogall (Mayo) - Posts: 5110 - 13/08/2010 16:02:08    745498

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1187

745415 So do you think everyone in the Republic in the midst of a recession would be happy to give 10% of their wages to incorporate N.I.?

who are we in the south to deny the right of northern nationalists to be ruled from dublin in an irish government. they have as much right as any other county. its our "tough luck" if we have to give up 10%. the people in the south shoved the north into the mess it was in. its the least the south can do. should we cut of kerry, cork etc too, if it makes it cheaper for 24 countys to live

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4211 - 13/08/2010 16:17:25    745516

Pomeroy, please read carefully, I know you think I'm "stupid" and "ignorant" so forgive me if you can't follow my posts. I said I would be willing to give up 10% of my wages for it. I didn't mention anyone else. Maybe I'm too "stupid/ignorant" and not up to the standards you're used to but I'm trying my best. Also, thinking the EU and America won't contribute to it is denial of the highest order and naive in the extreme. My american cousins are even more republican than me and are constantly onto their local representatives there about maintaining links with the old country, it's not hard, they're mad into it and politicians are mad for the irish vote all over the states. And that's talking about 4th generation americans.

This has become the most read thread on HS non GAA forum by some distance. There's a huge interest in this topic. Most people on here answered the question with a YES, we're still waiting to hear from seanie who started the thread as to what kind of % we could put on it. I can understand certain misgivings about how it will happen but I think most want it, easily a majority. The most disappointing thing about the thread for me was its fall into a who did what during the troubles, not moving on is what holds us back most. Also, I'm not just getting at ya pomeroy but a young fella in university who isn't even earning (presumption) and has no dependants (presumption) won't consider taking a hit to see his country united, that's terrible. Luckily I think you're the only such one I've ever met in my life. Aren't we supposed to be idealists while we're in university??

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 13/08/2010 16:23:47    745528

We'll agree to disagree Omagh.

Paddy yes I have no real desire to work in the Public sector at the minute, although I recognise that in these times getting any job will be difficult. I had a Placement year in Stormont and the waste had to be seen to be believed, it was frightening the money being wasted. As well as that I didn't find it all challenging, it was too easy to pass the buck to someone else and there was zero accountability. But the Public sector is the biggest employer up here so there are many who depend on it, they would need to be accommodated if there was a united Ireland. Ideally it would be one country but in my opinion there are too many obstacles to overcome for it to be feasible

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/08/2010 16:39:54    745547

bad.monkey

I think this Roald Dahl approach to the 'good old IRA' would be quite charming if it were not so hopelessly out of touch with reality.

Fenian dynamite campaign?

Cathal Brugha advocating sending a bombing team to London in 21?

The IRA shooting dead RIC men coming out of mass in 1920?

I am merely asking people to be consistent, I do not think you are in this instance.

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1795 - 13/08/2010 16:49:16    745560

Interesting idea 3241, maybe a stealth move by Meath to get a few nore All Irelands? ;)

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 13/08/2010 16:56:43    745567

Ceart go leor.

By the way my answer is yes

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 13/08/2010 17:13:07    745585

Hurlin okay you and your American cousins are willing to give money to the cause, that's very good so well done you. But that won't be a drop in the ocean, everyone in Ireland will have to make a contribution. I know you are willing to but I don't see your support being nationwide. People who are already finding it tough will be asked to make sacrifices and I don't think they will. I have my opinion, you have yours, these forums are here to debate. Also I'm sure you can look through the posts to find the percentage yourself if you're that curious. I'd hazard a guess a around the 90% mark which I would have expected

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 13/08/2010 17:26:22    745591

BadMonkey and Pomeroy,you both need to wise up! You are both talking nonsense about alot of these issues.The British military have been throughout history,one of the biggest and most brutal terrorist organizations ever to grace the planet.Are you both stupid?

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 14/08/2010 10:24:16    745856

Artisan you are abolutely right about Dan Breen,I have that book myself.I believe all this revisionism takes place after the events have faded a little bit.Just in the same way the leaders of the Easter Rising were severely criticized by many people of their time.If the British had sentenced them to life in prison,instead of execution,its unlikely the War of Independence would ever have happened.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 14/08/2010 10:29:30    745857

lads no where in my post did i defend the british army or their actions, in fact i didnt mention them at all!!! someone asked what defines a terrorist and i gave a generally agreed upon answer - the targeting of civilians and everyone just jumps on it ... i believe the british army carried out horrific acts which could definitely be defined as terrorist and they should be be held accountable to a higher level than a paramilitary group. Ye seem desperate to be offended and attack anything i say, i wonder why...

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 14/08/2010 11:09:06    745886

bad.monkey

I think this Roald Dahl approach to the 'good old IRA' would be quite charming if it were not so hopelessly out of touch with reality.

Fenian dynamite campaign?

Cathal Brugha advocating sending a bombing team to London in 21?

The IRA shooting dead RIC men coming out of mass in 1920?

I am merely asking people to be consistent, I do not think you are in this instance.

artisan think you are assuming something that i never said. i absolutely hold the 'old' IRA and the modern IRA in the exact same esteem.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 14/08/2010 11:13:48    745893