ULSTERMAN.
why would the united nations have to ever get invovled somewere down the line , when it supposedly has been sighned sealed and delievered ?

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 12/08/2010 18:00:32    744648

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1174

744636 Sorry Goodfella, I missed your original question. I wouldn't class the British Army as terrorists no, they were there to try to keep the peace. However regiments such as the UDR you could present a strong case that they were indeed. Of course there was also a large number of British soldiers who should have been brought to justice for the actions they carried out and it's a disgrace that they weren't. Being a soldier shouldn't mean you exempt from facing the consequences of your actions

I would suggest that the people of Derry, Ballymurphy and the McAnespie family to name a few would disagree with you. You are right, being a soldier should not make you exempt from facing up to your actions, it should make you more culpable. Killing is expected of "terrorists"(your words), murdering men, women and children you are paid to protect most certainly is not.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 12/08/2010 18:17:31    744668

PomeroyPlunkett we'll definately have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it's naive to say the British Army were here to keep the peace. Is that why various facets of their army have occupied parts of Ireland for over 800 years!!

In my view they have no legitimacy to be in this country. You are free to disagree of course.

Goodfella, Tir (None) - Posts: 1652 - 12/08/2010 18:20:51    744673

I think Ulsterman has a point. Historically if you look at the reasons for partition it was due to three reasons, religious, economic and cultural. Ireland is now a forward thinking modern country with little regard for Christianity or the Catholic Church, so Protestant fears of Rome Rule can be declared unwarranted. Secondly is the economic reason. Belfast was once an industrial powerhouse which was better off in the union. Now, the industry is gone and the people rely on handouts from Westminister to survive. An all-island economy would put an end to stagnation around the border region, caused by operating with two different currencies. Now I know, you're all goin to pounce here and say about the cost of absorbing the public sector into the Dáil budget, but if one is to believe that a provision for re-unification is included in the GFA, you can be sure the cost will be shared by Europe, Britain and Ireland. So thats two Unionist fears addressed. Lastly the cultural links to the crown. They remain as much in place as ever I suppose. Sadly I have no answer for that.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 12/08/2010 18:30:23    744681

Sorry Goodfella, I missed your original question. I wouldn't class the British Army as terrorists no, they were there to try to keep the peace. However regiments such as the UDR you could present a strong case that they were indeed. Of course there was also a large number of British soldiers who should have been brought to justice for the actions they carried out and it's a disgrace that they weren't. Being a soldier shouldn't mean you exempt from facing the consequences of your actions

I'm sure the people of Derry, Ballymurphy and the McAnespie family to name a few would disagree with you. The "terrorists" as you call them are expected to kill people, the British Army should not be expected to kill unarmed civilians it is paid to protect. You are correct in saying that soldiers should not expect to be made exempt, the fact is that they should be more culpable

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 12/08/2010 18:53:39    744705

The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes. Thus, the GAA is a nationalist leaning organisation and therefore the flying of the national flag and playing of the national anthem is entirely in keeping with the organisations aims. I assume that the numerous diaspora from europe, africa and beyond playing gaelic games have no issue with the flag or anthems, therefore if unionist leaning people have a problem this is not a problem of the GAA's making. The very fact is, that by definition a unionist does not want to be part of the Irish culture, therefore why should we try to coerce them into it? The lip service you speak of actually annoys me. If they want to play an Irish sport then let them do so. If they do not, so be it. The association should not be forced to change its aims and ideals to accomodate those that do not share its aims. I do not ask that GSTQ is not played at international matches in Windsor Park, nor do ask that the royal ulster flag is removed. If I want to go and watch NI then I will do so. I do expect that they will change their haits and customs for me.

i agree with every thing you say omaghred hand. if the GAA wants to keep its nationalist ethos and not move on to be a purely sporting organisation then no problem. but dont pretend otherwise and say oh wouldnt it be great if unionists played gaelic games, as you say this is very annoying. However i am surprised that it seems most people here would be against the 'normalisation' of the GAA so to speak - ie moving away from the nationalist/republican overtones and become just about the sports. Maybe it is just too soon for some. Its sad that everyone in society can play most sports together but the nationalist overtones means lots of people of the island feel unwelcome playing gaelic games or attending matches.

As regards to having more in common with Scotland and England, can you please explain a bit further what you mean by this? The only commonality that I have with these people is that I pay taxes to the same government. I was going to say speak the same language as well, but that would cover the whole of this island wouldn't it? I follow GAA games and pastimes, I speak some Irish and I like Irish music like quite a number of people up here. It is also interesting to note that the gaeltacht in Belfast is growing quicker than any other Gaeltacht area in Ireland. So how do you justify that statement

Well it is not meant as a slight, i would also say as a dublin person that dublin/dublin people probably have more in common with people in london than west cork or connemara - its just the way people live their lives, doesnt reflect on your nationality. From visiting towns and cities in the north, the pubs and town centres are very similar to those found in scotland and england, much more so than ROI. Also i found the people also are very similar to those i have met in scotland and north england - maybe because of the huge emmigration to these areas from NI.

As for the gaeltacht area in belfast growing, unfortunately the irish language has been politicised in NI in the main by Sinn Fein. They use it as a weapon to 'score points' against the unionists. That said the irish language is very beautiful and it is good to hear that people are using it.

I just find it a shame that anything Irish is immediately leapt upon and claimed by nationalists as 'theirs'. Lots of different people have lots of different beliefs, that does not make them any less irish than nationalists/republicans.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 12/08/2010 18:58:35    744710

It seems for the most part that a large majority on this forum,from all over the country are in favour of a united Ireland.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 12/08/2010 19:12:10    744724

'I would suggest that the people of Derry, Ballymurphy and the McAnespie family to name a few would disagree with you.'

Of course they would. As I said those responsible for the atrocities should have faced the full wrath of the law. You made your opinions on the whole matter very clear on another thread with a comment that personally I thought was both disgusting and deeply disturbing. When it comes to the Troubles thankfully me and you have vastly differing opinions

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 12/08/2010 19:14:50    744727

'It seems for the most part that a large majority on this forum,from all over the country are in favour of a united Ireland.'

It's hardly surprising that the majority of GAA fans would back a united Ireland now is it. The GAA has never exactly been a hotbed of support for the DUP

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 12/08/2010 19:18:47    744732

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2327

i agree with every thing you say omaghred hand. if the GAA wants to keep its nationalist ethos and not move on to be a purely sporting organisation then no problem. but dont pretend otherwise and say oh wouldnt it be great if unionists played gaelic games, as you say this is very annoying. However i am surprised that it seems most people here would be against the 'normalisation' of the GAA so to speak - ie moving away from the nationalist/republican overtones and become just about the sports. Maybe it is just too soon for some. Its sad that everyone in society can play most sports together but the nationalist overtones means lots of people of the island feel unwelcome playing gaelic games or attending matches.

The GAA is not a purely sporting organisation. Granted they are the shop front if you like, but song, dance and language is also invilved through the Scór and such. It is a Gaelic association. If it removed its Nationalist leanings then it would just be the Athletic Association. Lets be brutally honest here. The association was set up to ensure the continuance of Irish sport and culture that was systematically targeted for eradication by British policy, thus Unionist policy. Why then when it has flourished inspite of this should it, at a time of strength, allow the eradication of its Irishness if you like. The fact is that the politicisation of the GAA was a Unionist tactic to scare its electorate and to ensure that their people would not countenance any type of Irishness. I know this because I have friends who have played our games and stopped because of pressure from their own side as opposed to any wrong committed by the GAA. I also know and have seen many Unionists at Tyrone games and club games. I also remember some of these same men watching Tyrone games from their houses in Lisanelly Heights the loyalist estate that overlooks Helay Park and in which I was reared, simply because they were afraid, not of the GAA, but what it would look like to their peers if they attended in person. Thankfully this is no longer the case. I do accept that the naming of clubs after deceased republicans of recent times may cause problems to some, but, the fact is whoever is offended by the likes of Kevin Lynch's in Dungiven, will also be offended by Wolfe Tones, Emmets, Plunketts, Clarkes etc on a club name.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 12/08/2010 19:28:25    744739

The GAA has never exactly been a hotbed of support for the DUP

nor has 26 countys of ireland

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4211 - 12/08/2010 19:48:53    744759

'nor has 26 countys of ireland'

I think everyone is aware of that

pplocal (Tyrone) - Posts: 5878 - 12/08/2010 19:58:44    744769

Well it is not meant as a slight, i would also say as a dublin person that dublin/dublin people probably have more in common with people in london than west cork or connemara - its just the way people live their lives, doesnt reflect on your nationality. From visiting towns and cities in the north, the pubs and town centres are very similar to those found in scotland and england, much more so than ROI. Also i found the people also are very similar to those i have met in scotland and north england - maybe because of the huge emmigration to these areas from NI.

As for the gaeltacht area in belfast growing, unfortunately the irish language has been politicised in NI in the main by Sinn Fein. They use it as a weapon to 'score points' against the unionists. That said the irish language is very beautiful and it is good to hear that people are using it.

I just find it a shame that anything Irish is immediately leapt upon and claimed by nationalists as 'theirs'. Lots of different people have lots of different beliefs, that does not make them any less irish than nationalists/republicans


I didn't take it as a slight, just wanted you to clarify why you thought this. You are right in that city folk would have more in common with other city folk, and I agree it does not impact on nationality so I could not understand why you thought it relevant to your point. Secondly, it is quite obvious that under British rule that the dvelopment in towns and cities would mirror that in England and such. With regard to emigration, I would have thought, without any evidence to back it up I admit, that there would be a greater diaspora from the southern counties in England and Scotland than from the north.

Again, I disagree that the Irish Language has been politicised exclusively by Sinn Fein. Under numerous Westminister administrations, the language was forced to near extinction. Funding was non existent and the opeoning of Bunscoileanna was subject to self finance. Under the GFA, along with the right to Irish citizenship, is the right to speak the Irish Language if you choose to. An Irish Language act is a necessary safeguard to ensure that right remains. The constant equating of the Irish Language to Ulster Scots by Unionists is what has politicised the language. Ulster Scots, as admitted to by senior unionists is a dialect of english, much the same as Ulster, Connacht and Munster dialects are still Irish, so Ulster Scots is still English. The European Union has severley criticised DCAL, the department responsible for the Irish Language for its complete inertia and failure tocomply with European directives in relation to the promotion and sustainability of Irish and the continued instrangience in trying to claim parity between it and Ulster Scots. Finally I agree that by some, probably those least secure in their standing that Irishness is hijacked. I agree that Ireland is a multi-cultural society of Irish, second generation Irish and non Irish, and is the better for it.

P.S. I think that this is the best couple of posts I have read from you in quite a while. Sometimes it is better to stay near the middle ground as opposed to polar opposite

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 12/08/2010 20:06:59    744779

32_4_1
County: Meath
Posts: 2608

744759 The GAA has never exactly been a hotbed of support for the DUP

nor has 26 countys of ireland

Neither was Finland if that helps........

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13846 - 12/08/2010 20:09:18    744783

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1178

744727 'I would suggest that the people of Derry, Ballymurphy and the McAnespie family to name a few would disagree with you.'

Of course they would. As I said those responsible for the atrocities should have faced the full wrath of the law. You made your opinions on the whole matter very clear on another thread with a comment that personally I thought was both disgusting and deeply disturbing. When it comes to the Troubles thankfully me and you have vastly differing opinions

I explained the point you talk about quite clearly. If your as well educated as you claim to be then you would have understood my point. What then, was the difference between an IRA man (terrorist in your parlance) killing an unarmed person and a British soldier (non terrorist in your parlance) murdering an unarmed person. Of course your view of the troubles is different from mine, you got yours from a book

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 12/08/2010 20:11:19    744786

'It seems for the most part that a large majority on this forum,from all over the country are in favour of a united Ireland.'

"It's hardly surprising that the majority of GAA fans would back a united Ireland now is it. The GAA has never exactly been a hotbed of support for the DUP"

but if you also accept the 26 is not a hotbed for the dup just like the gaa, why would the outcome be different?

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4211 - 12/08/2010 20:12:03    744788

A fair following in Canada by all accounts though

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 12/08/2010 20:13:23    744790

PomeroyPlunkett
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1178

744769 'nor has 26 countys of ireland'

I think everyone is aware of that

What this thread does show is that it seems the huge majority from the 26 are for reunification and the massive majority from the 6 that watch gaelic games are also for it. Apart from people like pomeroy who will not support it until he/she is sure that his/her pocket won't lose out.

dhorse calls himself a republican and then says: "their united ireland" as part of a derogatory remark. It's like the PD ard fheis here.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 12/08/2010 20:20:32    744801

i dont see the point in the citizens of the 6 counties pitching their lot in with the republics government when they will probably rob and screw them over more than the british government did.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 12/08/2010 20:31:16    744809

Good post omagh redhand, just thought id mention when you say - Lets be brutally honest here. The association was set up to ensure the continuance of Irish sport and culture that was systematically targeted for eradication by British policy, thus Unionist policy. Why then when it has flourished inspite of this should it, at a time of strength, allow the eradication of its Irishness if you like.

i would say precisely because the GAA and 'irishness' are not under threat anymore. a match being played isnt made more 'irish' by their being a flag there. irishness is just inate in the playing of a match by irish people. these symbols only make our games divisive and i dont think 'divisiveness' should be a trait of 'irishness' if you know what i mean.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 12/08/2010 20:31:17    744810