Black&white i just got a chance to read myers article, he makes some interesting points but the man has been shown up so many times publishing inaccuracies and for want of a better description 'wumming' to provoke a reaction, that it is hard to take much of what he says seriously. I do take his and your point about not being able to predict the halocaust, but want to point out that is not why i said ireland should be ashamed. The fact that soveriegn countries were being invaded across europe should have been enough for the irish to at least declare themselves on the allied side, dont you think? i know in practice this may have partly been the case but why not come out and declare it officially. Should there be some shame for a country to ally itself with the countries fighting nazism? surely not, our very existance was at stake.

Some understandable points about ireland being a young country at the time but surely this should have been even more reason to join the allies - to make sure we didnt fall under foreign rule again.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 30/06/2010 19:26:05    692522

patrique

To be honest, I do not see many signs of this freedom

If you lived under a nazi regime or any brutal dictatorship you would probably appreciate the freedoms you enjoy and scoff at in your post

But the main point is, what role did the British army play in this?

they fought against the nazi's and the spread of nazism across europe

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 30/06/2010 19:32:52    692533

while interesting you have to question the idea that "irish jews" would be killed enmasse, there wasn't and still are not alot in Ireland.

no doubt there have been some evil and tyrannical regimes like stalin, robespierre, idi amin, pol pot. But for me regimes like the nazis are the worst because it is born out of pure hatred, and the industrialised killing of the jews is unforgiveable...

HokeyPokey (Tyrone) - Posts: 1744 - 30/06/2010 20:07:30    692572

Quite obviously our country had absolutely no resources to fight a war, other then sacrificing our young men as cannon fodder. As a previous poster pointed out many thousands joined up anyway and became just that. Declaring war on Germany was effectively allowing our enemies of 800 years back into the occupation of our country. As patrique pointed out Hitler had more in common with Britain then with any other country in Europe. It was the Russians who defeated Hitler and they were no angels either. I don't agree with much of what DeValera did but he was correct in keeping Ireland out of the war.

corkcelt (Cork) - Posts: 4388 - 30/06/2010 20:11:39    692577

As patrique pointed out Hitler had more in common with Britain then with any other country in Europe

absolute rubbish corkcelt, britain was a free and open democracy, russia, italy, spain...etc were dictatorships where people were denied even the basic freedoms taken for granted in countries like britain

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 30/06/2010 20:30:20    692601

badmonkey,

tell me this, how did britain help stop the spread of nazism when they appeased hitler and allowed him to take over czechoslovkia, as well as the rhineland, UNOPPOSED? What was it chamberlain said of hitler, "oh he's only going into his own back yard". So you see, britain was actually supportive of hitler and his expansionist policies. Sure why wouldnt they be, afterall, they had enslaved manys a nation during the previous 100 years. And they only decided to step in and oppose him when he started going too far i.e invading poland.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 30/06/2010 20:33:01    692603

Appeasement doesn't = support, even the result is almost the same.

There are a number of reasons why Chamberlain let Hitler have free rein in the late 30s: war weariness (post WW1), self-interest, a feeling that 'actually, we went a bit too far with Versailles, chaps'. That's still a hell of a long way from support, like ol' Adolf was getting from Moseley, Edward VIII, that guy who ran the Daily Mail etc etc.

whereangelsplay (Cork) - Posts: 240 - 30/06/2010 20:55:00    692629

Surprised of the views of here people regarding the nazi's

Do people also support the irish governments decision to harbour known nazi war criminals after the war? - like Andrija Artukovic, Celestine Laine, Pieter Menten...etc These people were known to have commited the most heinous atrocities (Artukovic alone responsibe for over 1 million deaths in croatia)and yet the irish government allowed them safe haven here after the war to live among us. I personally think this is wrong

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 30/06/2010 20:57:38    692635

tell me this, how did britain help stop the spread of nazism

simple scruffy they fought against them with the other allies and defeated them, thus stopping the spread of nazism. Not too complicated really...

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 30/06/2010 21:00:05    692639

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2244

692639 tell me this, how did britain help stop the spread of nazism

simple scruffy they fought against them with the other allies and defeated them, thus stopping the spread of nazism. Not too complicated really...

But do you not accept that they promoted nazism before turning against it?

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 30/06/2010 21:32:39    692688

wise_guy
County: Tyrone

Now there is no doubt Hitler and co where pure evil but there was similar closer to home...Cromwell!


Oiver Cromwell? Like many republicans very good with the military bit, but not so good with the politics.

As a republican Cromwell came to Ireland to fight the loyalists led by Owen Roe O'Neill on the "Irish Catholic" side, and also the "Old English Catholic" families who were still a force in Ireland.

I say "loyalists" as these groups were supporting the monarchy, in the shape of Charles 1.

As the first great republican, Cromwell was obviously trying to destroy the power of the monarchy, and replace it with an elected, democratic, parliament.

many in Ireland opposed this, and suffered, as Cromwell, like many republicans, was a bit vicious with it.

However he remained an inspiration to many such as the French some 150 years later when they stormed the Bastille, and also the insurrectionists in what is now the USA as they fought to over throw a tyrannical King.

However, he is still somewhat unpopular in Ireland, probably due to the way history is not taught.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 30/06/2010 21:38:37    692702

bad.monkey
County: USA
Posts: 2244

692601 As patrique pointed out Hitler had more in common with Britain then with any other country in Europe

absolute rubbish corkcelt, britain was a free and open democracy, russia, italy, spain...etc were dictatorships where people were denied even the basic freedoms taken for granted in countries like britain
-------------------------
Total nonsense, Churchills biggest concern was the preservation of what was left of the British empire, his ideas on freedom did not extend to the subjects in India, West Africa and other colonial possessions, its pure romantic tosh to believe otherwise.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 30/06/2010 22:01:31    692746

brendtheredhand
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2303

"Total nonsense, Churchills biggest concern was the preservation of what was left of the British empire"
Excellent point, indeed brend you could argue the brits actually lost ww2 for that very reason not to mention their supposed raison d'être for declaring war - the independence of Poland, how did that work out for the Poles?
And as an afterthought if you study the fighting history of the British army in ww2 it makes for rather underwhelming reading from running away at Dunkirk to the almost incomprehensible surrender of Singapore. Is it any wonder the American General Staff held them in such low esteem?

artisan (Down) - Posts: 1795 - 01/07/2010 09:57:40    692820

"the British and others fought and died to protect the freedom of the people of europe including ourselves. Declaring ourselves neutral in a war against nazism- the vilest evil possible was absolutely disgraceful, thankfully others stood and fought."

Absolute rubbish badmonkey.
If the brits cared so much for democracy and human rights and the fight against fascism then why did they help franco take hold of spain and defeat the democratically elected govt?? By the same token, why 20 years before did the Brits totally ignore the mandate given by the people of this island for TOTAL seperation from their occupation?? Why indeed did they go on to elect a fascist themselves in the shape of maggie thatcher in the 80's??

Brits never did care that much about human rights. Self interest and self preservation was more their deal. The real heroes in my view were the guys who went and fought for the spanish republic. No self interest there.

A german invasion would be resisted as a foreign aggressor no more or less than it was against the occupation that actually did occur.

Absolutely no proof that the Germans considered the irish as a subhuman race, at least no more than the brits did.

hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 01/07/2010 10:34:41    692858

Bad Monkey

Hats off to you man... This is a great thread for many reasons. ;)

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 01/07/2010 11:04:14    692907

patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 8618

Cromwell was no republican. A republican is someone who supports a state that looks after its citizens, with an elected president as its head rather than a monarchy. Cromwell was a murdering power hungry tyrant, who killed innocent catholics in the name of puritanism.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 01/07/2010 12:13:04    693023

Bad.monkey opened a can of worms with this thread. It's not just what happened in WW11, but also the Easter rising, the war of independence, the influence of the Church in Ireland and Ireland's relationship with Britain, and it forces us to take a look at our history for the last 150 years. Did the Irish always make the right decisions? probably not; But at least we can take a clear look at all this from a distance of many decades. It's not pleasant , but we have to be very honest with ourselves!

Bigapple (Kerry) - Posts: 495 - 01/07/2010 12:36:39    693057

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isNOQ3zQ2F0

There is an answer to those who ask why we did not join the war

dammon (Meath) - Posts: 1291 - 01/07/2010 12:38:33    693061

Scruffy2Donut
County: Cavan
Posts: 577

693023
patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 8618

Cromwell was no republican. A republican is someone who supports a state that looks after its citizens, with an elected president as its head rather than a monarchy. Cromwell was a murdering power hungry tyrant, who killed innocent catholics in the name of puritanism.



Scruffy, we already know that you are a great admirer of British imperialism in Afghanistan, Iraq, and where ever, and perhaps you resent Cromwell's republican background.


And for information purposes when Plato wrote "The Republic" in 360BC I don't think the word "President" had been invented.

That came some thousands of years later.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 01/07/2010 19:52:02    693702

Hitler was before is time is main goal was a united europe

Dublin09 (Dublin) - Posts: 433 - 01/07/2010 20:33:03    693749