hurlingdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 1725

665177 Cavan Slasher I have sympathy for the children you refer to but the underclass has created itself, not society. Some people choose to live like this and they are well looked after by the state. They get cheap accomodation - often as 'single parents' even though their boyfriends live with them - and all sorts of payments that working people are not entitled to. People I feel most sorry for are the decent WORKING people (including those genuinely out of work) who have not only to put up with these yokes as neighbours but who have to pay mortgages and tax for the privilege of it, and contribute to their upkeep. I would be on Snufs side here and would also lock up the Anglo and property speculators.

This is spot on hurlingdub. Only a very small amount of these social dropouts would have an excuse like the ones CavanSlasher has seen. In a country like Ireland, where everything is supplied free by the state to these people, they have no excuse for not getting an education and trying to get on in life like the rest of us. They have been afforded EVERY chance by society but they chose the path of s**m!

Lebowski (Meath) - Posts: 363 - 02/06/2010 11:06:01    665189

How about a human rights passport - whereby to qualify for human rights you have to pass a series of assessments.
eg - are you a productive member of society or have you been on the dole since you turned 18
- have you a criminal record or not
- have you made attempts to engage with society or have you decided that being a thieving waster is fine by you
etc etc

Decent upstanding citizens would be given human rights, those who failed the test would be classed as "sub human" and would be denied the right to vote, free movement, meet in groups of more than 3, use public facilities etc etc.

The "sub" class would have the opportunity to work themselves up, through public or charitable works, educating themselves, going drug free etc...

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 02/06/2010 11:06:10    665190

horse.laois.
good analysis there , not a bad idea .

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 02/06/2010 11:27:34    665208

Think its all too easy for people to simplify it into an us an them argument. Get rid of them and we'll be fine.

Simple fact is that anyone of us could have been born into the circumstances that most of these people have. People do what they know and unless they know any different they wont do any different. This is why i think the problem lies in housing these people together. In doing so you are putting them with like minded people who they relate to and in doing so can justify their actions as the norm.

The ideal solution is not letting unfit parents have children, as in most cases this is where the problem stems from. The alternatives to this is social housing which as I have stated doent help the problem or foster homes, good foster homes where the child is brought up in an environment where they are encouraged to see and realise his or her potential.

When adopting a child people are analysed thoroughly for their suitability as parents however anyone who is able can have a child and receive money from the government for doing so - this just doesnt seem right to me. (I know for a fact that many just have the children so they can claim the benefits). I know it wouldnt work but ideally there could be some sort of parenting test for everyone who is having a child.

The abortion theory for New York is a credible one, but Im not sure if that would work the same here as I have stated above many are just having children to receive the free handouts.

Derry_ledd (Derry) - Posts: 2093 - 02/06/2010 12:19:21    665269

I dont know why we give single mothers extra state welfare. Not only does it encourage women with no education or prospects to have more children, which they wont look after, its also an attack by the state on the institution of marriage which is the key to a successful family.

Scruffy2Donut (Cavan) - Posts: 1112 - 02/06/2010 15:03:31    665543

Scruffy2Donut
County: Cavan
Posts: 463
"I dont know why we give single mothers extra state welfare. "

i agree. they should hunt down the dead beat dads who cant be ***** providing for their kids, & make them pay, rather than leaving it to the state to

mac21 (Leitrim) - Posts: 677 - 02/06/2010 15:19:27    665574

mac21
County: Leitrim
Posts: 514

665574 Scruffy2Donut
County: Cavan
Posts: 463
"I dont know why we give single mothers extra state welfare. "

i agree. they should hunt down the dead beat dads who cant be ***** providing for their kids, & make them pay, rather than leaving it to the state to
-----------------
They tried that under the child support agency in the UK and it failed miserably. There were fathers who were being cleaned out and ended up committing suicide and there were those who simply didnt give a rats ****. The cost of running this was phenomenal and it just wasnt economically viable.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 02/06/2010 15:33:18    665601

If we can send aid to many other countries we can also look after our own poor unfortunates. All we need is a proper structure to do so. We can all blame the unmarried mothers,absent dads and addicts but there is not a word about the free dole !! Nobody should get money for nothing as there is always grass and hedges to be cut, roads to be maintained, streets to be cleaned and bins to be emptied. They could also be used to mark out football pitches, tidy dressingrooms etc. The people who are addicts should be weaned off the gear and used in the same way. A bit of work did no man any harm and it would make them appreciate it when they actually had time off !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 02/06/2010 17:20:41    665818

There are an awful lot of 'experts' on this thread passing judgement on a group in society that they know absolutely nothing about. Its all well and good to sit on your high horse when you've had the advantages that most you in here have had.

Not everyone in this country is born with an equal chance. Some have to work twice as hard as you to get half as far as you in society. Never forget that an awful lot of where you're at in life, of what you can achieve, has been because of the advantages of your birth.

People like to kid themselves that they've gotten to where they are by their own inititive. You haven't. You were blessed from birth to be born into advantage.

Others weren't quite as lucky as you. Some people overcome their disadvantages, others don't. Would you have?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 02/06/2010 18:19:09    665885

Well said MesAmis, the silver spoon brigade are out in force here. Its funny some people want a class system here.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12464 - 02/06/2010 18:35:33    665903

Lockjaw

....but if we changed our name to Israel we would get away with it!

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9829 - 02/06/2010 19:07:29    665939

Oh I know all about these people Mes Amis! Being living in too close proximity to the scum a lot of my life other than when I was away. People who make excuses for them I find are generally the care bear types who insultingly lump these scum in with the rest of us as part of the 'working class' which they want to save when they are going through their leftie phase.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 02/06/2010 19:34:25    665987

but for the grace of god it could be you hurling dub

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 02/06/2010 21:05:16    666107

hurlingdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 1729

665987 Oh I know all about these people Mes Amis! Being living in too close proximity to the scum a lot of my life other than when I was away. People who make excuses for them I find are generally the care bear types who insultingly lump these scum in with the rest of us as part of the 'working class' which they want to save when they are going through their leftie phase.

I take your point but its too easy to just call people scum. It dosen't come near the heart of the problem nor does it help us solve the situation.

I'm not some left wing care bear as you put it. I'm inner city boy born and bred. I hate what these people have become, I know these people, I went to school with them. I hate the way they are now but I can remember a time when they weren't like this, many of them are what circumstances have made them.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 02/06/2010 21:10:22    666115

mes amis.
as is much i hate drugs and what it does 2 people directly or indirectly my intentions of this were sincere and honest , i speak my mind and sometimes boil over.
basically that was one of the most honest and touching post i have ever read , u should be proud of yourself. i wish i was as tolerant as u.
but then again u live in that enviroment , excellent post mes amis , u swing ones thinking with a statement like that . well done.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 02/06/2010 21:35:57    666153

hipster
County: Dublin
Posts: 1449

666107 but for the grace of god it could be you hurling dub


Don't think so hipster. I was born and grew up in working class area, and we were raised properly as were vast majority of our neighbours and that included people who at the time were out of work through no fault of their own. Then there was the anti social/criminal/waster element who basically didn't care and now their children and their grandchildren are the same. Not because of the state or the HSE or 'capitalism'. Because of them. Becasue of the way they brought up their children to have no respect for anything including their own community. And as I said before they are not living in abject poverty because they know how to milk the system and of course they are not averse to earning money in other ways as well so they are not exactly starving. Unlike many decent people who have worked and paid their way and who are the real victims not only of the recession but of having to live in communities infested by these people who break into their houses, sell drugs, mug their kids and generally try to drag the place into the gutter. Between the lines you may guess that I have little sympathy for them!

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 03/06/2010 08:25:40    666203

Hurlingdub,

So have you a solution that will actually work or are you going to be like Snuffy and just rant and rave and run away from having to come up with something that will actually help the situation and is viable ? Now there is nobody on this planet that likes the situation as experienced by you and many other Dubs but we have to come up with a solution that will actually work and not a "shoot them all" type of scenario !! By the way there is no such thing as a "sub-human" being as stated by Snuffy !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 03/06/2010 12:26:32    666430

There is only one true capital, and that is Cork.

PROC_Hurler (Cork) - Posts: 203 - 03/06/2010 13:26:35    666529

Cavan Slasher I gave my solution earlier. Lock them up once they have a serious charge against them rather than let them run amok for years like those animals who murdered the two Poles. Lock them up and then detox them and educate them and train them to work. But locking them up and protecting the rest of us is the first duty of society, not protecting the rights of people who don't respect anyone else's rights.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 03/06/2010 13:32:42    666546

MesAmis
County: Dublin
Posts: 1054

665885 There are an awful lot of 'experts' on this thread passing judgement on a group in society that they know absolutely nothing about. Its all well and good to sit on your high horse when you've had the advantages that most you in here have had.

Not everyone in this country is born with an equal chance. Some have to work twice as hard as you to get half as far as you in society. Never forget that an awful lot of where you're at in life, of what you can achieve, has been because of the advantages of your birth.

People like to kid themselves that they've gotten to where they are by their own inititive. You haven't. You were blessed from birth to be born into advantage.

Others weren't quite as lucky as you. Some people overcome their disadvantages, others don't. Would you have?

Well said MesAmis. Said it better than i ever could.

Pure snobbery on this site by a certain few.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 03/06/2010 13:45:19    666567