Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 4357

602951
Dell,

and to spite Tyrone it seems according to Mickey Harte !!


To be fair harte never used those words but this never happened before in the league . Why now ?

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 29/03/2010 18:59:31    603018

hurlingdub, heres a piece from this evenings Evening Herald.

DubsExileInNaas (Dublin) - Posts: 171 - 29/03/2010 19:04:23    603025

hurlingdub, heres a piece from this evenings Evening Herald. You'll probably find the part about relegation as clear as mud!!



TITLE RACE: Mayo and Cork (10pts each) are in pole position, but neither is guaranteed to reach the final. Dublin (8pts) can still qualify if they win in Tyrone and Mayo lose in Cork, in which case Dublin's earlier victory in Castlebar would see them leapfrog Mayo. However, if both Dublin and Mayo win, then the Sky Blues would be squeezed out courtesy of their earlier loss on Leeside while a Cork/Mayo draw would be good enough for both sides, come what may in Omagh.

RELEGATION: Derry (2pts) can still mathematically escape, but only if they beat Galway, Tyrone lose to Dublin, there's a winner between Kerry/Monaghan (preferably Kerry, given their respective scoring differences) and Derry win by a big enough margin to see them edge out Tyrone and one other on scoring difference. A long shot, suffice to say. Neither Kerry, Monaghan nor Tyrone (all 4pts) are safe, but Monaghan look the most likely fall guys given they must travel to the Kingdom. However, if Derry don't win and if Tyrone and Monaghan both lose, the Farney will survive because they've already beaten Tyrone, who would drop to Division Two.

DubsExileInNaas (Dublin) - Posts: 171 - 29/03/2010 19:05:53    603027

This was started as a new thread and has been moved here to keep all relevant discussion in the one place.

fredrickwood 30/03/2010 12:39 Mickey Harte Left Red-Faced Mickey Harte has been left embarrassed by the revelation that all counties including his own were aware of the rule in relation to teams finishing on the same points.His county delegates knew as far back as october and did'nt bother,it would appear,to pass this information to Mickey and his management team,leaving Mickey red-faced after his comments at the weekend.The fact that delegates in his own county were informed of this and knew will be of great disappointment to Mickey. All Tyrone need to do is to beat Dublin to stay up,results elsewhere will be irrelevant,and I think this will happen,if they go down on the head-to-head rule I think the delegates in Tyrone will be afraid of bumping into the 3 time All-Ireland winning Manager.

Administrator (None) - Posts: 2275 - 30/03/2010 13:49:43    603897

The GAA either didn't think this rule through fully or it hasn't been explained properly.

Take the situation in Division 3:
- Going into the final weekend of games Antrim are top on 10pts with a points difference of +26.
- Wexford and Sligo are in joint-second on 8pts and a +7pts difference.
- Antrim and Wexford have both previously beaten Sligo.
- Sligo play relegated Roscommon in the final game while Wexford host Antrim.

It is quite conceivable that all three teams will finish level on 10pts - this would occur should Wexford and Sligo both win their final games. If the head-to-head rule was applied properly then Antrim and Wexford should surely be promoted under this scenario since they have both beaten Sligo.

It shouldn't matter that three teams are tied on the same points, as they haven't "beaten each other" - i.e. from the three matches played between the teams tied on points each team wouldn't have one win and one loss each. Surely this was when the points difference was meant to come into play?

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 30/03/2010 16:21:20    604180

How come nobody was informed of this at the start of the league, it seems crazy that a manager of one of the top teams would only hear about it now, hopefully they will make another change before the end of the league like they two middle teams get promotion and not the top, i would agree with this.

Louth Gael (Louth) - Posts: 1227 - 30/03/2010 16:49:35    604234

IF and its a big if , Dublin beat Tyrone and Cork beat Mayo , I can assure you now Dublin fans won't mind one bit

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13654 - 30/03/2010 16:59:39    604251

I like to think I keep relatively well up to date on all things GAA but this head to head rule is news to me. Croke Park say the motion to change the rule was past last October. I did not see it in any newspapers. I would think it would have been worthy of a few headlines. Maybe I just missed it

Maradonna (Meath) - Posts: 128 - 30/03/2010 17:13:48    604281

nocky
County: Wexford
Posts: 1812


It's also possible that Sligo and Wexford both lose their final match and Cavan win there's and either Offaly or Louth win. That scenario would result in 4 teams being level on 8 points in second place with Antrim top on 12 points. If for talk sake Louth were to be in contention with Cavan, Sligo and Wexford what exactly would happen there as Louth had previously beat both Wexford and Cavan but lost to Sligo. Wexford as you say beat Sligo and Sligo beat Cavan. Confusing to say the least.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 30/03/2010 17:22:10    604297

I know it may seem bias on my part but I disagree with this system. Always have, as they use it in the Spanish La Liga. I think goal difference/point difference is a better system. It's a reflection of the season as a whole rather than one game. That's the way a league should be decided

MayoMark (Mayo) - Posts: 332 - 30/03/2010 17:30:18    604324

The revelation that ALL counties,or at the very least their delegates,were aware of this totally exonerates the Gaa.If those delegates did not inform their own county boards then it is clearly their fault.All counties knew last October.
Dell they are not changing it as they go along and I expect an apology to the Gaa from both yourself and Mickey Harte.
I cant understand all the confusion that everyone has.It's fairly black and white.If 2 teams finish level then it is head-to-head that determines who finishes higher.If 3 or more finish level it comes down to scorin difference.Seems fair enough to me.

fredrickwood (Roscommon) - Posts: 2871 - 30/03/2010 18:17:21    604423

from a wexford perspective ,we may be rightly stung in this situation ,head to head only applies for two teams level on points when three teams finish level on points its on scoring difference and with antrim way ahead on that scenario ,sligo could beat roscommon by ten ,and even though wexford might beat antrim by one point ,they could have beaten both antrim and sligo and still not be promoted its all very confusing

bogstandard (Wexford) - Posts: 799 - 30/03/2010 18:20:16    604432

Correct squid, the scenario you outlined is highly possible. That is presumably why they introduced the "if more than two teams are level on points then scoring difference counts", as it would be impossible to determine who has the better head-to-head record in that eventuality with all the teams having beaten each other.

The situation should ourselves and Sligo both win on Sunday is different, however, as Wexford and Antrim have the clear head-to-head advantage over Sligo. I feel that it is slightly unfair on ourselves at the moment as in order to qualify we must either:
- beat Antrim by more than Sligo beat relegated Roscommon
- beat Antrim and hope Sligo lose or draw
- draw with Antrim and hope Sligo lose or draw
- beat Antrim by 10points (highly unlikely)
- lose and hope Sligo lose by more than us. Cavan must also lose/draw and if Louth and/or Offaly both win then they mustn't overtake us on points difference (0.01% probability)

Roscommon have nothing to play for in their match with Sligo as they are already relegated, whereas when we played them last weekend they were fighting for survival. This is why head-to-head is perhaps a fairer method of determining final league positions.

Apparently someone working for Wexford County Board have confirmed that it will definitely be points difference that decides it however, so we are relying on Roscommon to do us a favour as well as our own ability to get a win vs. Antrim.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 30/03/2010 19:04:28    604489

TITLE RACE: Mayo and Cork (10pts each) are in pole position, but neither is guaranteed to reach the final. Dublin (8pts) can still qualify if they win in Tyrone and Mayo lose in Cork, in which case Dublin's earlier victory in Castlebar would see them leapfrog Mayo. However, if both Dublin and Mayo win, then the Sky Blues would be squeezed out courtesy of their earlier loss on Leeside while a Cork/Mayo draw would be good enough for both sides, come what may in Omagh.



I must be missing something here or maybe i'm just stupid, i can't get my head around it, i make out that win/lose/draw Cork are in the final.

51longago (Mayo) - Posts: 2981 - 31/03/2010 14:52:09    605308

No. If Dublin win - say by 4 points, and Cork lose by 4 points, then points difference does come into the equation because Dublin, Mayo and Cork will be on the same points. Dublin would go through. Head to head only applies to two teams. So Cork do have something to play, at least as long as Dublin look like winning in Omagh!

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 31/03/2010 15:10:18    605344

Wrong because if Mayo won we would be on 12 points.

51longago (Mayo) - Posts: 2981 - 31/03/2010 15:31:54    605391

Why is it that every year managers seem to be ignorant of the rules until they realise that they might be affected?
It was the same when Division 4 teams were excluded from the Qualifiers, no mention of it when the decision was made, but come the summer every manager is complaining as if it had been sneaked in at the last minute.

I can clearly remeber this rule change being published a few months ago, I think it even appeared on the main HS page. Yet managers only cop on to it with one round of league games yet?

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 31/03/2010 15:33:55    605393

no Hurling Dub If Cork lose and dub win then its Cork and mayo in the final. If cork win and Dub win then its cork and Dub in the final. And if its a draw in the Cork game or if Dublin Lose it is Cork and Mayo in the Final.. Cork are through no matter what happens

monaghansbest (Monaghan) - Posts: 23 - 31/03/2010 15:48:34    605419

Well thank god thats been cleared up, i read the newspapers and everybodys posts yesterday and i was pulling out my hair. I was baffled thinking why cant people see Cork are in final end of story.

51longago (Mayo) - Posts: 2981 - 31/03/2010 16:00:02    605438

Right, right. I had understood it and then got fuddled! Forgot about Mayo being on 10 points.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 31/03/2010 16:16:21    605475