20/04/2010 14:03:18
TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 1999

623356
nocky i honestly cannot see where you or anyone else you mention proved me wrong on any point in that thread, you made it clear that you disagreed but i dont see how that proves anything. Why did you ignore the few points i brought up that showed you had made claims that were not accurate? Anyway, if all u are going to do is say 'ur wrong ur wrong' without any rhym or reason then i wont bother, in my experience there is no point in responding to someone like that.
_________

You have been proven wrong on ALL your points TheMaster, not just by me, but also by Lorcan and asf22. When all you have is that Pablo Hernandez was called up once in 2008 without getting capped then your argument is in trouble. It's there for everyone to see.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 20/04/2010 14:47:52    623433

I disagree I think there is an arrogance towards the english league, like they are a gang of muckers, even though it has been the dominant league in the CL for the last 6 years. The thing about this is there is no way i can prove it is true, just like there is no way you can prove it isnt, however i think the points i made make the case that there does appear to be an imbalance. One or two of these things and you would say okay, just a coincidence, but it is far too regular an occurrence for that. Alonso plays far better at liverpool and struggles to get into the side, goes to madrid with average form and is a mainstay, same with arbeloa, arteta cant even make a squad for a friendly even though he is one of the most versatile players at their disposal yet the likes of guti, valeron and the rest i mentioned get in time after time, guti was barely getting a game at madrid at the time. The likes of riera can get in while, the same guy cant even get a sniff at liverpool. I remember reading in a newspaper that reyes was told he needed to get more regular football in spain (while he was at arsenal) if he wanted to get into the squad. Why in spain? Surely you can admit that it is all a bit odd

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 20/04/2010 19:38:57    623892

TheMaster:

1. Alonso had Senna ahead of him a couple of years ago. Senna then got injured and Alonso hasn't looked back. Alonso was a starter for Spain last year, when he was playing for Liverpool, which is in England.
2. Arbeloa was a right back in England for Liverpool, and not a very good one most of the time. Yet he still made the Spanish squad for Euro 2008. He has played most of his games for Madrid at left back and done quite well, left back is where he was capped for Spain in recent matches.
3. Valeron and Guti haven't been capped since 2005, so how are they keeping Arteta out of the squad exactly? Also Arteta was a Real Sociedad player in 2005. San Sebastian (where Real Sociedad come from) is in the Basque country, a part of Spain (although ETA would like to change that).
4. Absolutely no idea what kind of point you are trying to make about Riera, who WAS capped when playing for Liverpool, before his form dipped. He was not even that good to begin with.

I have made these exact points before but you don't seem to have grasped it.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 20/04/2010 20:59:46    624004

the master uve been proved wrong unanimously the pepe reina 1st cap one been the clear example especially when valdes playin for arguabley the best club side in the world cant get in the spain squad.. also when valeron was playing for spain he part of a depor side getting to cl qf and sf.. arteta wasnt getting a game at soiceada so can u explain how he could warrant a place. reyes also got most of his spainsh caps while at arsenal and yet to be capped since returning to spain..

guti was nvr a regular for spain as is too unrelaible and a hot head.. also despite not been a fan of his busquests has clearly been first choice for barca this year .. toure was ahead of him last year but for some reason pep has gone for sergio this year.. sayin otherwise is showing a lack of intelligence on your part master..

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 21/04/2010 12:14:20    624368

Lads there is no need to be so aggressive in the points ye are making. You'd swear he had insulted your families lads.

I would agree with him in the attitude towards the premiership, perhaps the opening thread is not the best way of expressing this belief. Its not as straightforward to say the Spanish league is completely skillful and technical and the premiership is purely strength, fitness and speed. Nothing is that clearcut.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12452 - 21/04/2010 12:44:04    624426

Breffni, TheMaster has been proved wrong, but he refuses to accept this reality. His entire argument has been reduced to: "Pablo Hernandez was called up to a Spanish squad in 2008, but didn't get a cap (no idea how much research he did to establish this, I can't even be bothered to check if it's true or not). At this time Arteta was playing really well, so this proves that Spanish national team coaches show bias against English-based players." His arguments are laughable and have been proved wrong time and time again.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 21/04/2010 13:16:52    624471

Did Jesus Navas ever get over that condition he had. He had severe homesickness or something didn't he??

Adler (Monaghan) - Posts: 754 - 21/04/2010 14:36:40    624597

Should this thread nt be on elevenaside??

shnappy (Wexford) - Posts: 220 - 21/04/2010 20:16:25    625091

Well nocky considering you told us that arteta was INJURED (and yes you put it in capitals too) when pablo hernandez got called up, i thought it was important to show that you had made this up, for what reason i do not know, but you seen fit to fabricate facts to suit ur story. Why bother? Why not actually try and find out the right story?

As for this thing about being proved wrong, all i see is opinion. The only thing i got wrong is the fact that busquets managed a handful more games than yaya toure this year, hardly a deal-breaker, toure is far from a superstar df mid anyway.
Nocky is of THE OPINION that alonso has gone from strength to strength this year and that is why he has kept his place. I disagree, if anything alonso has had a dip in form this year, he was better over the last two years, so where is this strength to strength bit coming from? And how did he go from squad player to third in line for the captaincy on poorer form than he had been showing up to that point?

Nocky also THINKS that arbeloa didnt get picked because he was playing on the opposite side while at liverpool. However, he played on both sides for liverpool. He was even placed on lionel messi when the sides met in the CL in 07 where he done a very good job and liverpool won. Surely this is as good an advertisement for him at left back as there could be?

guti and valeron still got called into the squad after 2005 and their good form had long deserted them (in valeron's case anyway, guti never had it to begin with). If there was call for these types of back-ups then why not now?
Yes nocky riera is rubbish and always was, that is the whole point. How did he make the spain squad at all, nevermind repeated caps? Had he stayed at man city i have no doubt that he wouldnt have a cap to his name, and had he not gone to liverpool im sure he would have more to it.

Nocky also told me that spain had enough cover for central players, even though arteta can also play on either flank, but ignoring that fact let us analyse this. That would mean they have xavi iniesta and fabregas fighting it out for two positions, they have two up front and a df mid player. That leaves one place for silva, jesus navas, cazorla, hernandez, mata and riera. So ur telling me that they have 6 players covering one position, i.e. this specialised winger position you told me that spain use and that nobody but a winger can fulfill, and three covering two positions? How does that make sense? What if fabregas and iniesta got injured? The truth is that ur winger-only position is a fabrication. i seen with my own eyes the vast majority of those lads play on the flank. As somebody already pointed out navas gets chronic homesickness, he struggles to even travel around spain, what good is he going to be? In my opinion arteta is a better player anyway but surely any reasonable manager can see that navas isnt going to be an asset to an international team.

So where are these rock-solid scientific proofs of urs? Could you post the theorem?

asf22, what point about reina? I never mentioned the man's name. Im not arguing where reyes was when he got his caps,he was playing the best football of his career in his early arsenal days, im wondering why he was told he needed to be in spain?

Look lads the reality is i cant prove this no more than you can prove it is wrong. It is an opinion which has been come to by observations. I posted it on here to listen to other people's views on the matter but it has just been rail-roaded into a personal crusade for nocky. The way ye go on i would need a sworn testimony from all the spanish managers from the last 20 years before ye would even consider it. The points are interesting and i believe there is a snobbery towards lads who dont play in the spanish league. Of course they are not going to drop torres but lesser players do seem to need to do more than home-based ones to warrant a call-up. I fail to see how this is so ridiculous...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 21/04/2010 20:29:11    625106

I just double-checked Pablo Hernandez' stats TheMaster, because the fact he has been called up to a Spanish squad ahead of Arteta seems central to your argument, and you have accused me of "fabricating facts". I feel that I can prove my facts to be 100% correct, so I expect an apology from yourself and a retraction of your accusation.

You claim Hernandez was called up to the Spanish squad in 2008, when in your opinion, Arteta was playing particularly well. I presume you are referring to Hernandez' call-up to the extended Euro 2008 training squad? Perhaps the reason he was selected ahead of Arteta was not bias against the English-based player, but rather due to the fact Arteta was injured at the time. According to Everton's website, "Arteta suffered a niggling stomach injury in the second half of the (2007-08 Premiership) season, meaning his effectiveness was reduced. Shortly before the final game of the campaign, he underwent surgery to rectify the problem."

Hernandez did not make the the final cut for the Euro2008 squad, or the Confederations Cup squad the following summer (although several English-based players did), but was called up last July/August for a couple of friendlies. He made his debut in the second of the friendlies, playing 19minutes as a substitute vs. Macedonia. He was called up again in November for another pair of friendlies, playing the second half vs. Austria and scoring a goal. This time Arteta was sidelined with a cruciate knee injury suffered in February 2009, so no bias there then.

I await your apology.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/04/2010 12:17:43    625470

master the reason i used reina was bcoz u say spain wont pick players based in england but he didnt get capped till he moved to liverpool despire playing well at villareal for a few yrs b4 that.. so this proves there is no bias against englis based players.. for heavens sake LIVERPOOL WAS THE CLUB WITH THE BIGGEST REPRESENTATION IN THE SPANISH EURO 2008 SQUAD.

you keep goin back to valeron and guti in 05 they were squad players at best then baraja, xavi, alonso and albelda were ahead of them. they were also playing in strong madrid and deportivo teams back then.

Arteta in 05 was a sub for real socidead. does that warrant a call up to the spanish squad ???

also u keep changing from post to post is this spanish bias against english based players or arteta coz u keep changing your mind also der is not 6 players goin for one position cazorla or riera or not near the spainsh squad at da min ive even named da likely squad and formation for you.

gk
rb cb cb lb

dm
cm cm

am

cf cf

23 man squad starters in caps gkCASILLAS reina lopez RB RAMOS arbeloa CB PIQUE PUYOL Albiol Marchnea LB CAPEDVILLA Monreal
DM senna ALONSO busquets CM XAVI INIESTA fabregas am SLIVA mata cf TORRES VILLA llorente guiza/negrado

theres 2 players for every position except holding player and gk .. and plenty of flexabily as alonso or silva could slot into the cm role and arbeola can go lb..no wingers although they can change and play iniesta on the right wing ans silva on the left and play a flat 4 in midfield.. personally i dont think there is any need to bring busquests dont think hes good enough and id throw in a wildcard like navas as he seems to over his mental issues or pedro from barca ..

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 22/04/2010 13:07:40    625536

As I have pointed out twice before Valeron and Guti haven't been capped by Spain since 2005, so I fail to see why you continue to use them in your argument. Arteta was a Real Sociedad player in 2005.

Xabi Alonso did not start the majority of games at Euro2008 due to the fact that Marcos Senna was deemed the better defensive midfielder by Spanish manager Luis Aragones. They were in direct competition for the same place, but Aragones decided to go with Senna. You may argue that Senna was selected purely because he played for Villareal, but I feel this is extremely unlikely. Aragones was no fool, I doubt he would have jeopardized his team's chances of winning by playing the Brazilian-born Senna in place of Alonso purely because one played club football in Spain, the other in England. Ever since Euro2008 Alonso has been first-choice, including his final season at Liverpool, which is in England, so I fail to see the bias there. Perhaps you feel there are better Spanish holding midfielders playing in England who are being overlooked?

As you may or may not be aware TheMaster, Arbeloa made the vast majority of his Liverpool appearances at right back. He did make a few at left back, but not very many. He was selected to the Spanish 23-man squad for Euro2008 while a Liverpool player and appeared in their final group game at right back. He was not in their first XI as Aragones deemed Sergio Ramos and Joan Capdevila to be the better options at full back. I don't think there is much of an argument that Ramos is the better right back, but if you wish to argue that point go ahead. Capdevila is naturally left-footed and a left back, Arbeloa is naturally right footed and had not played much at left back, so this probably had more of an influence on Aragones' selection than the nationality of their respective clubs. As you may know, since his move to Real Madrid Arbeloa has played a great deal of games at left back and has received a great deal of praise from commentators for his performances His displays did no doubt not go unnoticed by the Spanish management, leading to his selection in a couple of friendlies. I fail to see how you can come to the conclusion that the must have been bias shown during his time at Liverpool.

I cannot fathom what you point you are trying to make about Albert Riera, although you describe him as "rubbish and always was". Surely the fact that he was capped when playing in England means no bias was shown?

You again show your ignorance of Spanish football when you refer to David Silva as purely a winger. He is more often used as a central playmaker, coincidently Arteta's best position. May I suggest Arteta is behind Silva, Fabregas (who also plays his club football in England), Iniesta and Xavi because he is not as good a player as any of them? Do you feel he is better than any of them? Perhaps he is not selected when the likes of Mata, Navas, etc. are this is because Arteta is a different kind of player and does not possess their pace?

Your opening post suggests there is a Spanish bias against England-based players. Apart from the cases of Arteta, Alonso, Arbeloa and Fabregas whose past or present exclusion from the Spanish squad/starting XI I feel myself and others have already explained, what English-based players do you feel are losing out on selection?

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 22/04/2010 13:32:51    625571

Yes nocky i know arteta got a stomach injury that year, but the fact is the provisional squad was announced in early april, arteta was still playing when this squad was announced. Even if the player had privately started to feel unwell at this point Arteta said that aragones had never contacted him so there was no way that this had kept him out of the squad. He had actually just picked up the North West Footballer of the Year and Liverpool Echo Sports Personality of the Year awards for his performances up to that point, so his performances up to the squad selection had been first rate. His performances did start to tail off at this point, but the squad had already been announced. I dont see why pablo hernandez' first call up was so important to you, he has been called into subsequent squads. It is here i think you are misunderstanding my points about him, riera and the rest. My issue isnt with hernandez, riera, de la red, or cazorla personally, they are only the next in the line. My point is that these guys seem to get the chances to play in the squad again and again, yet none of them are as good as arteta. They all get repeated chances but a superior player cant even make a squad?

No nocky i am fully aware of the type of player david silva is and isnt, you were the one who told us that spain play a winger in the final midfield position. If you remember their first choice mf line-up at the euros that 'winger' was david silva, and now you say he is similar to arteta? Yet, you earlier said he plays a position for spain that arteta cannot? So now you are saying that they play three creative midfielders and have four players for these positions? And then they are regularly calling up 5 wingers who there are no position for as they play three creative players? It is not me that is showing a lack of knowledge...

You are painting the picture that spanish managers will spite their own team for the sake of keeping the english based players out, like some evil supervillian. This isnt what i am trying to say, i think that it is more subtle than that. A good summary would be that if two equal players, one based in each league, put in the same performances every game throughout the season, the spanish based one would get the nod when the international game came around. That is what i am talking about when i mention xabi alonso and arbeloa, the same, and even lesser performances they put in in spain seem to do more for them than those in england. I dont for a second buy that bit about arbeloa, he had been is squads before real played him at left back and is the same player now that he was when at liverpool. He played at left back to mark messi so im pretty confidant that his ability at left back wasnt this best kept secret that you make it out to be. You are trying to discredit the argument by simplifying it to the point that i am saying all players will be dropped if they go to england, but i have clearly pointed out what i am saying, in a tight call the spanish based player will get the preference.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 22/04/2010 20:11:31    626139

Don't give up now lads, it is getting interesting

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 23/04/2010 13:20:28    626816

I'm still waiting for that apology TheMaster. You claimed I had fabricated a story about Arteta being injured when Pablo Hernandez made his international debut. I did not, he WAS injured at the time (cruciate knee ligaments). He was also carrying an injury for the entire second half of the 2007-08 Premiership season, one which required surgery. The Spanish provisional squad was announced in late April, which is in the second half of the Premiership season, so Arteta was injured then too. He underwent surgery before the last game of the Premiership season, which finished on May 11th that year.

TheMaster, please point out where I stated Spain play a winger in their final midfield position. What I said was having out-and-out wingers in the squad gives them a different option, a change of tactics. Arteta is not an out-and-out winger and therefore is not competing with Navas, Mata, Cazorla etc. - he has no pace and doesn't offer them anything Xavi, Iniesta, Silva and Fabregas already offer. These players offer something different, something Arteta does not possess. This is important as they can be valuable substitutes to bring on late in games to run at opposing full-backs, etc.

You are completely ignoring these facts:
Alonso was first choice for Spain during his last year in Liverpool.
Valeron and Guti haven't played international football since 2005.
Pepe Reina has been in almost every Spanish squad since his move to Livepool, but Barcelona's Valdes still has not been capped.
Arbeloa has performed consistently better at Real Madrid than he ever did at Liverpool (and he WAS capped in his time in England).
Mikel Arteta was INJURED at critical times when he might have received a call-up to Spanish squads.
Fernando Torres has been an ever-present in the Spanish team since his move to Liverpool.
Even Riera has been capped since his move to Liverpool.
There just aren't very many international-quality Spaniards playing in the Premiership.

Do you honestly believe Arteta is better than Xavi, Iniesta, Silva or Fabregas who compete for the same place in the squad as him?
Do you honestly believe Arbeloa deserved to start ahead of either Ramos or Capdevila at Euro2008?
Do you actually think Marcos Senna was chosen ahead of Alonso for Euro2008 because of the country he plays his club football in?

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 23/04/2010 13:31:50    626832

isn't there a special forum created for this soccer carry on?

Yours In Sport,
Joseff

joseff (Louth) - Posts: 964 - 23/04/2010 13:51:19    626875

address the questions put to you master .. you have said previously this was about all english based spainards now its back to arteta only.

you keep ignoring the facts.. which are alonso became 1st choice for spain after euro 08 when senna got injured this was when he was at liverpool.. he was also choice at world cup 2006 when at liverpool too. your response is ??

luis garcia at liverpool in 2006 was worse then any players be it riera or pablo etc was picked in da spanish team ahead of raul and iniesta at the 2006 world cup also.

guti and valeron havnt played for spain since before 05. arteta was a sub for real soicead back then so nvr warrented a call up..

pepe reina won his 1st spainsh cap a month after moving to the pl. victor valdes has won to european cups with barca in that time and is still awaiting a call up to the spanish squad

arbeloa was called up by spain while at liverpool as back up for ramos and capedvilla. arbeloa at madrid is in the spain squad as back up to ramos and capdevilla

you have said yourself this thread is bias against english based spainards not one player alone these facts clearly have proven there is no bias just highlights a very good player in arteta is unlucky that there is great pleyers in his position since 07 in fabregas iniesta xavi and this is why hes missed out on call up added to the fact hes been out injured for quite a while in that time

and finally arteta was going to be called up by spain to play against england in feb 09 but picked up the terrible knee injury beforehand..

asf22 (Galway) - Posts: 31 - 24/04/2010 12:38:05    627657

maybe ur rite juan veron never got a game for spain and he played for united and chelsea, dissapointing

beer baron (Cavan) - Posts: 3916 - 24/04/2010 21:50:57    628147

No, i said you fabricated the story about arteta being injured when hernandez got his first call-up. Arteta didnt get a cruciate ligament injury until 2009, as you said urself, hernandez got his first call up for the euro 2008 squad, which was, as i already pointed out was announced in early april, the second week i believe. If arteta was injured for the whole second half of the season, why was his operation on the last day of the season? better still, why was he still playing in april?

RE wingers, so ur argument is spain have three creative midfielders starting and as replacements have 6 wingers? What if any of the starters get injured? What happens then? What if they all got injured? Wingers everywhere? No direct replacements? How does that make sense? Do they only have two strikers in the squad? Or one goalkeeper? The logic u are using to show arteta has no place in the squad is totally flawed, if anything it proves there is call for a player like him even more. So what does that mean in reality? It means that ur 'wingers' are in the squad as replacement midfielders, and therefore ARE in competition with him. You said urself that it would not be their natural position, so what is the indication there?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 27/04/2010 18:43:46    631515

Now for ur list of commandments:
You said urself alonso got into the team in place of senna due to injury, so that is how he got in at his last year at liverpool.
You misunderstand my point about Valeron and Guti, im not saying he was in direct competition with them, im saying that just before arteta started to show the form he did, there was place for two backup players of his ilk, both of whom were in the twilight of their international career, surely he would be the ideal replacement fro these lads? The squad clearly had a place for this type of player, and the selection of these lads indicates that there was room for non-winger replacements before? So what changed?

reina is a world class goalkeeper and is the second best goalkeeper spain have, why shouldnt he be in the squad? As i already pointed out, it is not a light switch, every player who plays in the english league is not going to be dropped the minute they sign the contract, that is ridiculous, and the be honest, just an attempt to over-simplify and ultimately discredit the viewpoint.

arbeloa is playing no better now than he was last year or the year before, he started over 40 games for liverpool in their best season in recent times, 35 the year before. His caps in that time was 1 start and 3 as a sub, this year 5 starts and 1 as a sub. That also dispels the argument that he is still a backup...

Arteta wasnt injured when he got voted epl midfielder of the year, ahead of ronaldo, and not even making a squad, forget a cap, not even a squad for a friendly, even with the euros on the horizon and the likes of guti baraja and valeron on the way out. In contrast, look at trapattoni's squad just announced in preparation for the next tournament.

RE torres, see reina
RE riera, again not dropped instantly out of the squad but not there anymore. My point about him is that i think that had he is a very poor player, and the only way he the original call-up was through la liga-tinted glasses

I never said arteta was better than those lads, but players get injured, it stands to reason that if a team playing three players of his ilk, that he should warrant a place in the squad, so when you think about it, it is quite extraordinary that he has never even made a squad
I dont believe arbeloa deserved to start, just like i still dont, but that is not the point. My point is he is the same player he was last year, why has he all of a sudden come into fashion? He played on either side before he even went to liverpool, so for me that bit doesnt fly.
Again no, i think senna is a better player, but that is not what i am arguing, my point is why did he this time replace him permanently? He got in because senna was injured, but senna has been injured before and reclaimed his place. So why, when alonso has been performing at a lower level than before, has he managed to keep the place? Senna's season stats are almost identical to last seasons, so i dont buy this big loss of form excuse either

Again, all ur demands met, and without an insult or victory claim in sight, u should take note. Ur tactic seems to be throw as many things as u can think of and one will stick, If i was as sad as u i would start pushing this spiel about winger-only squad members but im not that bothered, personal vendettas on a forum border on the pathetic...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 27/04/2010 18:44:08    631517