Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 1703

588798 David Humphries was always pilloried for even the slightest mistake by the Dublin media while O'Gara is largely given a bye ball good or bad.

And you could say the exact opposite with regards both the Ulster and the British media. According to most North of Drogheda, Humphries was the Jesus reincarnate, whilst O'Gara was the worst player on the planet. BBC have always been more than thrilled when they have an excuse to put down RoG, and will continue to do so every chance they get.
The Lions example that you quote is a prime example. RoG's error immediately after suffering a concussion. Others had made worse mistakes during the game to concede tries. And he hadn't been involved in the first game, which was also lost. But yet it's all O'Gara's fault.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 16/03/2010 16:57:10    589875

Breffni, your statistics are a bit misleading (different opposition), as well as incorrect. With O'Gara on the field Ireland have scored 4 tries (including the game-winning try in Twickenham), while with Sexton on the field we have scored 5 tries.

Here is the breakdown of our scores to date:
Ireland 29-11 Italy Heaslip, O'Leary tries, O'Gara, 2/2conversions, 4/4penalties, Wallace 1/1penalties.
France 33-10 Ireland Wallace try, O'Gara 1/1conversions, 1/1penalties.
England 16-20 Ireland Bowe (2), Earls tries, Sexton 0/2conversions, 1/3penalties, O'Gara 1/1conversions.
Ireland 27-12 Wales Earls (2), O'Leary tries, Sexton 0/3conversions, 3/4penalties, 1/1drop goal.

Sexton 5/13 kicks at goal
O'Gara 9/9
Wallace 1/1

These stats are from memory and may not be correct (O'Gara may have missed one or two kicks vs. Italy or France, I'm not sure). Please people feel free to correct any mistakes.

What annoys me is people writing off O'Gara and suggesting he has nothing more to offer. Neither of our out halves are Dan Carter good, but they have different strengths and weaknesses and allow us to attack the opposition in different ways.

O'Gara is a better passer of the ball from the hand, and we have two centres who can certainly take advantage of this passing, not to mention our wingers and fullback(s). He is also a better kicker from the hand and from the tee. Sexton is better in defence, and at making line breaks, but I still feel O'Gara is (marginally) the better player at the moment. Sexton is the future though as he is much younger, and he will only get better from playing in big games for Ireland, so I support Kidney's selection policy 100%.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 16/03/2010 17:44:02    589940

The_16th_Man
County: Clare
Posts: 160

589146 O'Gara is the man to grind out a game, the old days, kick a team into positions, win matches on penalty kicks, consistently accurate, but sporadic out of hand going for touch but has an excellent ability to read the play, pick out a chip into space, find a winger with a high kick across the pitch. Defensively poor and has been exploited often in the past and as the legs start to get that bit heavier this problem will only increase in gravity.

Sexton gives a much more cutting edge to the attack in open play, fast hands, excellent defensive capabilities, great speed and ability to spot a gap. Place kicking a serious concern for the present but I expect this to improve greatly, it needs to. Lacking experience and improvement can only come through game time.

For the moment let Sexton gain experience. O'Gara in his early days often had uneasy kicking games and turned into one of our best outhalfs ever. Whoever Kidney envisages starting against Australia in the World Cup should be playing now and I think he is.

Agree completely.Good assessment.Have to laugh at your man who said O'Gara cant run or pass.Sure I could do both of those.People are soooooo desperate to slate O'Gara.It's sad to see it.I am not surprised at our Northern pups or Leinster snobs but surprised at the rest of ye.

fredrickwood (Roscommon) - Posts: 2871 - 16/03/2010 18:42:52    590004

o gara is better in my opinion

bigman2 (Tipperary) - Posts: 1202 - 16/03/2010 19:30:47    590042

Ronan O'Gara .

RenardRedHand (Tyrone) - Posts: 547 - 16/03/2010 22:01:19    590223

Other than the quare fella, who exactly is slating O'Gara or saying he has nothing to offer?

I get the impression that most people who pick Sexton are making a marginal decision. Some people seem very attached to O'Gara and take the slightest criticism of him personally!

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12485 - 18/03/2010 10:50:25    591023

Nocky, correct, i had forgotten O'Gara had come on for that try. My stats are not misleading though. Different Opposition? Thats like me saying the kicking stats are misleading cos the weather was different. They were team stats and are perfectly relevant, albeit containing a slight error.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12485 - 18/03/2010 10:54:11    591028

Well Breffni, you used team wins as a sort of measure of how good our outhalves were.

Can you honestly say that you think we would have won in Paris with Sexton at outhalf? Also, when Sexton left the field in Twickenham we were losing, O'Gara's kick to touch set up our winning try, so to credit Sexton with a "win" there is misleading.

If you are going to credit outhalves with "wins" and "losses" like they do with pitchers in baseball, then O'Gara's record would be 2-1 and Sexton's 1-0 with a no-decision.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 18/03/2010 11:30:26    591070

Fair enough Nocky, only stats that favour O'Gara are relevant. As long as we know where we stand.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12485 - 18/03/2010 11:47:11    591105

Where did you get that from Breffni?

You attempted to use "team tries" from 4 games in an effort to convince everyone that Sexton is the better outhalf, getting your statistics wrong. You used incorrect and misleading statistics and tried to introduce the baseball concept of "wins and losses" into the debate about our rugby outhalf (and got that wrong too).

The only statistics I put forward were O'Gara and Sexton's goalkicking ratios - O'Gara's 9/9 and Sexton's 5/13 (and that's being kind to Sexton by including a drop goal - from the tee he has a 33% success rate).

I think goalkicking statistics are highly relevant to the outhalf debate, as it is the outhalf's job to kick penalties and conversions. Sexton has left an awful lot of points behind in his Six Nations games this year, O'Gara hasn't. Obviously you don't think that goalkicking is an important duty of an outhalf (when he is the designated goalkicker, of course), I disagree.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 18/03/2010 12:21:53    591165

Jesus Nocky, you are hard work sometimes.

Our opinions on this debate actually don't differ that much. I happen to think Sexton is a slightly better option. I did not slate O'Gara in any way. I have a lot of time for him. Sexton is getting a bit of a slating from team ROG here as well and my stats were merely to highlight that as bad as some of his kicking was, we still won those games. You do not appear to be happy with me doing that. Sexton is still an above-average kicker, going through a bad patch.

I have accepted there was an error in the stats, but still maintain they are relevant. I did not dismiss kicking ability, but do not think it is the absolute be-all and end-all for rating an out-half, particularly when plenty of tries are being scored. You can argue all day about the merits of out-halfs, there are so many factors in what makes a good one.

I rate Sexton as slightly better at this moment in time and attempted to back up my reasoning, rather than slating the reasoning for an opposing argument.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12485 - 18/03/2010 12:40:15    591194

Breffni, I agree our opinions aren't that far apart on this subject, but I take objection to the method you used to try and illustrate how Sexton is the better player. Instead of talking about his better defense and threat as a runner you talked about team wins and team tries, when Sexton has only one more team try and if you are to apply the baseball statistic of wins (itself a dodgy method of measuring a player's performance), one less than ROG.

You gave Sexton credit for the win in Twickenham when it was O'Gara at outhalf who set us up for the winning score. Sexton left the field having missed 10points with the boot, and with Ireland 3 points down.

You also said that Sexton "can miss as many kicks as he likes as long as he keeps those stats going". I strongly disagree with that statement, not only because your stats were incorrect.

If you read the last paragraph of my first post on this topic you will see why I believe O'Gara is the better outhalf at the moment - my opinion, not a statistically based argument at all.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 18/03/2010 13:48:34    591308

Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 2396

591194 Jesus Nocky, you are hard work sometimes.


And the award for HS understatement of the year is Breffni.
Congratulations Breff,your award is a weekend away in Nockys b&b in the Sunny South East!

fredrickwood (Roscommon) - Posts: 2871 - 18/03/2010 14:04:22    591350

Well thats that answered.... sexton no----

miketyson (Limerick) - Posts: 2748 - 20/03/2010 18:58:45    593534

Taking him off as he was about to kick a penalty will definitely not give him confidence , R O'G should have stated the game and the Triple crown would have been saved.

fortyfive (Tyrone) - Posts: 5929 - 20/03/2010 19:14:55    593540

Posts: 1072

593534
Well thats that answered.... sexton no----


Yep, without Sexton today it would have been murder.

Kidney picked a team to play open rugby, sexton stars and cleaves through Scotland for the quick try, and converts it.

Unfortunately Scotland DESTROY Ireland in the scrum, the loose and most importantly, the line out.

Sexton with a wonderful tackle on the Scottish number 14 keeps Ireland alive, converts a penalty, but by now it is obvious that Ireland need to play territory.

On comes O'gara and kicks two scores. However there is now a large hole in the Irish defence and Scotland pour through.

Today Scotland destroyed the Irish forwards so it didn't matter if Dan carter had started for Ireland.

So....look at it this way. If Sexton and O'gara were french, or Welsh, Kiwi or Springbok, Sexton would start.

If they were English with Johnson in charge, O'Gara would start.

All depends what way you want your rugby.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 20/03/2010 19:42:50    593565

You obviously weren't watching the same game as the rest of us patrique. Sexton missed two more easy kicks (6 points) and turned down two other kicks from near the halfway line, but inside Scotland's half. Yes, he made a good break for the try, (which shouldn't have stood as his pass to O'Driscoll was clearly forward), but apart from this he did little else.

When O'Gara came on Ireland were 7points down but we got back level, due in no small part to O'Gara himself with his excellent goalkicking and his better passing to our world class centres (remember Sexton's pass to no-one in the first half where we lost about 30m?). We also scored a great team try with O'Gara on the pitch.

While Scotland did "pour through" our defense at times (7 missed tackles in the first half), it certainly wasn't exclusively due to O'Gara's presence on the field, remember when they "poured through" for a try O'Gara wasn't on the pitch.

Sexton is still young, and will hopefully learn from this experience and disappointment - it was good to see him score his (easy, but pressurised) penalty with O'Gara waiting to come on - but he has a bit to go before he can be considered our best outhalf. More is required from our no.10 than a flashy break/good tackle or two each game patrique.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 20/03/2010 21:27:05    593658

nocky
County: Wexford
Posts: 1716

593658
You obviously weren't watching the same game as the rest of us patrique. Sexton missed two more easy kicks (6 points)


Obviously you have no idea of the concept of rugby.

Ireland's number ONE was the MAIN problem today.

O'Gara is useless at prop.

The 6,7 and 8 were also poor. O'Gara is useless in the back row.

And finally as the line out disintegrated, the hooker's throwing did likewise.

O'Gara at hooker? Nah.

PS; Yes two penalties is 6 points., a try and conversion make 7.

Hence my original post, start with O'Gara and Ireland would have had 6 points instead of 7 on the board.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 20/03/2010 21:51:20    593701

Unlike many I actually attend these games.

The majority of those present reckon O'Gara was finished in 2007 at the world cup.

Subsequent events have done little to dispel that theory.

Most at the games would have O'Gara as 4th choice fly half behind Sexton, Humphries, and Wallace.

He was a great servant, but no longer.

And unless you have no idea of how rugby is played, it is pointless my repeating that goal kickers are useful, but not the be all and end all.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 20/03/2010 21:55:15    593713

patrique

You just can't admit it sexton played bad. linked up a few times but it was a day when the boot would have won the game in positional kicking and also penalalties. Sexton is a great player when the ball has to be throw around but today the boot was needed to grind out a result and if o'gara was playing we would have won it. The open passing game wasn't working if rog was there pulling the strings we would have won.

Grand if we want to throw around the ball then yes use sexton. But with the way the scrum was working and the way the back were playing kicking was the only option.

And to say if sexton hadn't started today we would have been murdered i think o'gara was brought on too late, he steadied the ship when he came on.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 20/03/2010 22:01:05    593726