Abit of consistency is needed whats good for one is good for all then players would,nt be so quick to retalliate or get in fights with the knowledge they will be punished for there behaviour...

DUB1 (Dublin) - Posts: 5583 - 16/02/2010 22:05:54    563767

Roger
County: Meath
Posts: 212

563128 Omaghredhand, yours is an intelligent argument - but I stand over my opinion regardless of whether it is a criminal, civil or disciplinary issue. You make the point that it is a conscious decision which games are covered by television and that this means it is not a level playing field. How is this different from a Garda checkpoint, which somebody in the station consciously decides will only be on one road? Only the people who drive that road are checked, only those who break the rules on that road are charged. Again, if found in breach of the rules you could not plead clemency because there were not checkpoints on every other road at that point. A judge would laugh you out of court if you tried that.

Thanks for the reply Roger and indeed yours is a well argued viewpoint, something quite rare on this forum of late. I get your point about the Garda checkpoint, but as I mentioned in the first post, resources determine what and where a checkpoint is situated. It is generally accepted that the higher the risk, i.e. a more dangerous stretch of road determines where a VCP is situated. This is not something the GAA has an issue with. There is I would presume sufficient capacity to video all senior intercounty games as this should involve no more than 16 cameras and does not seem to be an issue around championship time. Secondly, with regards to risk, obviously this is not a matter the GAA can delve into as it is both impossible and discriminative.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 17/02/2010 12:05:11    563996

Roger have u read breheny in the indo today?>
You should!!!!!!!

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 17/02/2010 12:10:52    564006

Is there a link for that Liamo?

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 17/02/2010 12:12:36    564013

indo website Omagh

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 17/02/2010 12:19:29    564028

It is an interesting argument to say there needs to be cameras at every game in order to get a level of consistency. I am not sold on it, but even if that did happen, again you could argue it is still not a level playing field. I'll give you this example:
Meath played Limerick in the qualifiers last year and Stephen Bray received a straight red card. We have our tough men but Bray has an impeccable disciplinary record and made the claim that he simply pushed a defender away who was holding his jersey. The defender hit the ground - perhaps he tripped on the grass, I'm making no allegations against him - and an umpire advised the referee to send Bray off. Meath appealed, used a series of photos to try and prove their case, but had the appeal thrown out as the camera - the game was covered on live TV - did not pick the incident up.
Earlier in the year Eddie Brennan of Kilkenny had a four week suspension from the league final lifted on video evidence, which showed he was not guilty of the offence which an umpire had reported him for.
Could Meath argue that it was not a level playing field as they suffered because the standard of camera work in Portlaoise last year not the same as it was in a league final earlier in the season? Video evidence is a random arbiter, as it does not cover every single incident on the field. It does not guarantee a 100 per cent detection rate and somebody getting clocked off the ball might be unlucky enough to be caught one week and get away with it the next week, depending on the actions of the director.

With regards to Brehony - I don't always agree with him but it seems we are on the same wave length this week. In fairness, Sean Moran in the Times made an arguement comparing video evidence to the laws of the land last year as well.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 17/02/2010 12:53:28    564101

Roger,
If i was you i would be onto Breheny looking for author credits!!!!

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 17/02/2010 12:57:38    564113

As I'm sure its been stated before, will Tyrone be using the video evidence from Sundays match to have Joe McMahon's red card rescinded?

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 17/02/2010 13:18:12    564141

Meath played Limerick in the qualifiers last year and Stephen Bray received a straight red card. We have our tough men but Bray has an impeccable disciplinary record and made the claim that he simply pushed a defender away who was holding his jersey. The defender hit the ground - perhaps he tripped on the grass, I'm making no allegations against him - and an umpire advised the referee to send Bray off. Meath appealed, used a series of photos to try and prove their case, but had the appeal thrown out as the camera - the game was covered on live TV - did not pick the incident up.
Earlier in the year Eddie Brennan of Kilkenny had a four week suspension from the league final lifted on video evidence, which showed he was not guilty of the offence which an umpire had reported him for.
Could Meath argue that it was not a level playing field as they suffered because the standard of camera work in Portlaoise last year not the same as it was in a league final earlier in the season? Video evidence is a random arbiter, as it does not cover every single incident on the field. It does not guarantee a 100 per cent detection rate and somebody getting clocked off the ball might be unlucky enough to be caught one week and get away with it the next week, depending on the actions of the director.

Again Roger I take your point, but again I refute the analogy with speeding infractions or any other criminal activity. It is not physically possible to have VCP's on every road at every moment of the day. It is not possible to detect every single crime nationwide no matter what you do. However, the use of video evidence at every senior intercounty game is physically, financially and logistically possible due to the small number of games played at the same time. Criminal offences are neither predictable nor physically confined to one area therefore it is impossible to consistently with any degree of certainty deploy resources to the correct area. With the GAA however, they know when the games begin, where they will be and what time they will finish at. Therefore, it would appear to make sense that the GAA could supply the appropriate resources.

In relation to the incidents that you mention, I accept that video evidence will not pick up all incidents and that sometimes it will provide no further enlightenment than the interjection of an umpire or linesman, but the point is, that if at every game, video evidence is used, then every team has the same chance of a) getting caught misbehaving or b) getting mistakes rectified. I am not against video evidence. I am against selective use of such evidence. My view is not based on the recent issue involving my own county although it has strengthed my view. It would appear that the aim of the GAA is to "clean up" their games. This method of discipline does not do this, all it does is it push it into the background. The GAA is not Tyrone, Kerry, Derry, Cork, Dublin, Kilkenny etc or any of the perceived glamour teams at both codes and it would appear that the GAA have taken a very narrow view in that they want to be seen to be taking a tough stance in order to promote the game with sponsors, TV etc and not as they suggest to clean up the games as a whole.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 17/02/2010 13:31:46    564167

NavyNBlue
County: Dublin
Posts: 339

564141 As I'm sure its been stated before, will Tyrone be using the video evidence from Sundays match to have Joe McMahon's red card rescinded?

And your point is?

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 17/02/2010 14:02:23    564243

Omaghredhand, in every game that you try and clean up you start at the top, you don't start at the bottom. You send out a message with regards to the teams that people look up and are standard bearers. Using video evidence on a Division 4 game will not send out a message to anybody, the media won't be interested in it, kids playing club won't pay any heed to it.
I can't agree that it is unfair that the Division 1 teams are judged by video evidence just because Setanta or RTE are not present in Division 4.
As it stands now, it costs the GAA nothing to get TV cameras into four or five grounds every NFL weekend. In fact they get paid for the privilege and get the tapes for free. To suggest that they should organise for themselves cameras at every game, 16 in total or 32 for those weekends when there are both hurling and football leagues on, is not something I agree with. The costs and practicalities of it don't make it a runner, unless we are talking about some guy with a video camera at the back of the stand. (Can you imagine the clamber for him if there was a brawl in Omagh or Pairc Tailteann, to try and stop him giving the tape to Croke Park - he'd want a security detail).
The one thing I will say about video evidence in its current format is that we should be informed how the decision making process operates. Do the CCCC view every video tape or do they just select ones that they deem there have been incidents worth checking? If the latter is the case, who makes the call on what to view and what not to watch - the referee, the match assessor, the CCCC?
These are all details we should know more about - but using them or other arguments to try and cloud the issue that those who are caught breaking rules need to be put through the disciplinary process, is nothing more than a smokescreen.
The GAA is a voluntary body and videoing games is not standard procedure at club or county level. However, in various cases it occurs and if it can prove assistance in either clearing somebody's name or proving guilt, then we need to embrace it and not try to find fault with it when it suits our needs.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 17/02/2010 15:18:10    564381

Tell me this , and I am making an honest comment; If someboby turned up at a county game with a camcorder and filmed an incident that might be percieved as a dangerous or dirty off the ball challenge , would the CCCC be prepared to look at it if said camcorder person sent it in to them. I sense a gap in the market.

gaelantrim (Antrim) - Posts: 1616 - 17/02/2010 15:33:08    564414

Using video evidence on a Division 4 game will not send out a message to anybody, the media won't be interested in it, kids playing club won't pay any heed to it.
I can't agree that it is unfair that the Division 1 teams are judged by video evidence just because Setanta or RTE are not present in Division 4.

Again point taken, but the fact remains that it is an unfair system at present and I won't accept that Setanta or RTE dictate the disciplinary system of our games which is what is happening at present. If you want to implement a system then it must be fair to all. The rules must apply to all or else you automatically encourage dissent and claims of victimisation. It would appear that we have reached an impasse on this debate, however I must thank you for an enjoyable discussion free from secular bias and look forward to future "jousts" with your good self.

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 17/02/2010 16:05:51    564486

Omaghredhand, must agree that we both have differing takes on that, both of which are worthy of consideration. Would think that we might actually agree on a lot - but the devil is in the detail.
It points out the difficulty of running an organisation like the GAA. On certain issues there is no definitive right or wrong, but you must plough ahead regardless. Something that can take a huge amount of consideration can be belittled in one passing remark by a manager, angry at the way his team has performed, and this can shape public perception.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 17/02/2010 17:32:29    564638

Point I'm making omaghredhand is that with the help of video evidence red cards can be rescinded. Thought Joe McMahons red card was incredibly harsh and I would have expected Tyrone County Board to use this evidence to get him off just as video evidence has been used to dish out the suspensions to the Tyrone players after the Derry game.

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 17/02/2010 19:10:29    564799

All we want is every team to be treated the same and i would not care if video was used then as it would be used accross the board..

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 17/02/2010 19:47:23    564841

The logical conclusion I have come up with from this thread is that if you want to get away with speeding wear a Cork or Kerry Jersey while driving as even if the speed camera sees you, you won't get charged.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12440 - 18/02/2010 14:52:32    565632