Well Said Roger
Fair play.

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 16/02/2010 12:34:37    562840

Spot on Roger.

If a player deserves a red, then he should get one. And we should use all tools economically viable to make sure he gets one. i don't care whether he is from Kerry, Meath, Tyrone or Leitrim.

A cheap box when a player is on the floor deserves red. A hooked finger in the mouth deserves a ban. A brawl on the sideline deserves a ban for bringing the game into disrepute. etc etc. simple as whether it is during the match or after the match.

Some challenges are obviously subjective and it is hard to know but in the main disgraceful off the ball fighting should not e allowed.

At the moment only the major incidents are drawing attention and it is not good enough. But still there is no reason why ANYBODY should complain if someone from their county is deservedly banned. Whether others have escaped or not is a side issue and does not mean that we should just let everything go. The high profile incidents in televised games are being targetted intially. No complaints about that. But hopefully the CCCC are working on putting cash and manhours in place to look at all incidents in all league and championship games.

There is no point in people feeling pity if they get caught.

thykingdomcome (Kerry) - Posts: 1206 - 16/02/2010 12:51:19    562880

If I said that Eamonn Lillis should serve no punishment for the manslaughter of his wife, because others have got away with a similar crime as there was no evidence in their case, then you would obviously say this is a flawed argument.
The issue of consistency regards to how the rules are applied when people are charged with breaking these rules. Consistency does not refer to a 100 per cent detection rate. For Tyrone or any other county to argue that they should not be charged with breaking rules unless there is a 100 per cent detection rate is so far off the scales of common sense that people are not taking a moment out to realise it.
Harte is a brilliant manager, I'd swap him for my own county manager is a heartbeat (no disrespect meant to Eamon O'Brien), but he is just putting up a smokescreen at the moment deflecting attention away from his team's performances. He is up there with Alex Ferguson in manipulating the media to suit his agenda. Bravo to him, he is brilliant at it and if we all continue to fall for it hook, line and sinker, more power to the gentleman!

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 16/02/2010 12:58:41    562897

How about the referees decision is final.
If he doesnt see it, his umpires or linesmen dont see it then thats it, forgotten about, a line drawn in the sand. And if he does see it then whatever he thinks is a just punishment then thats it decided.
No appeals, no ccccccccccccccc, referees decision is final.

bosch (Derry) - Posts: 873 - 16/02/2010 13:16:48    562924

blu
County: Down
Posts: 727

562836 Video evidence can only be used where there is a camera present. If there is a camera there and a player transgresses he will be suspended on video evidence.

If there is no cameras there & the same player commits the same offence it will go unpunished.

Therefore the teams that play in front of the cameras are unfairly scrutinised.

Video evidence can only be used if there are cameras at every game.

This is not an issue in championship time as all games are covered, but at this time teams will be missing players while they prepare for the latter stages of the league & the championship.

On another note where video evidence is used it should also be used th clear players wrongly punished.


Ok little ' I dont like Tyrone ' Blu from Down. 2 things:

1. If your 'saviour' Marty Clarke hits someone during your next league game, gets caught by the referee and gets a yellow card - no problem. However, the Friday after the match he gets a 1 month suspension because of trial by tv - you wouldn't feel a little f***ed off? I think you would.

2. Tadgh Kennelly was caught clearly striking in the AI final last year and also admitted to doing it - by your argument it was caught on tv so he should be banned. Alas, nothing comes of it - no ban, nothing. What do we do now?

I think that all Mickey Harte is asking for is consistency. But at the minute that is not happenin. All the C's cant ban 2 people 1 week and the following week 10 players get no bans for the same offenses.

Brock_Lesnar (Tyrone) - Posts: 95 - 16/02/2010 13:17:52    562927

Agree with you Roger on that one Harte is deflecting the poor Tyrone performances on this trial by TV statement! On a seperate issue if the third man in to the scuffle were to recieve a straight red, would this eliminate a lot of the handbag stuff we see week inn week out?

NWMeath (Meath) - Posts: 80 - 16/02/2010 13:21:44    562937

Roger
County: Meath
Posts: 210

562897 If I said that Eamonn Lillis should serve no punishment for the manslaughter of his wife, because others have got away with a similar crime as there was no evidence in their case, then you would obviously say this is a flawed argument.
The issue of consistency regards to how the rules are applied when people are charged with breaking these rules. Consistency does not refer to a 100 per cent detection rate. For Tyrone or any other county to argue that they should not be charged with breaking rules unless there is a 100 per cent detection rate is so far off the scales of common sense that people are not taking a moment out to realise it.

Roger, as with Nocky, you equate criminal matters with disciplinary matters. This is foolhardy. As I explained in the "Who would want to be a referee thread", they cannot be compared. In your example above, Eamon Lillis was guilty of killing his wife and his chances of detection are the same as anyone else who comitted such an act by virtue of the evidence available. This means that depending on the evidence available, by his own action or ommission that he is as likely or as unlikely to be found guilty as any other person. In respect of the use of video evidence by the GAA/CCCC they are by their actions (choosing a specific game(s)) to screen and by omission (choosing not to show others) making it infinitely more likely that a person who is involved in a screened game will be subject to more intense scrutiny in relation to their actions. I am not absolving the players of their responsibility in relation to their behaviour, but the fact is that through concious choice players involved in games that are shown on TV etc are discriminated against in terms of the disciplinary process as they are subject to a greater chance of detection than those who engage in the same behaviour at a non-televised etc match. This means that the process of discipline is unequal and unfair. In terms of criminal offences, the law is equal in relation to its process in that it is the same for everyone(or supposed to be in theory) I think you made an earlier point in relation to speed cameras. Again this is an uncomparable analogy. For obvious economic reasons it is impossible to have speed cameras on every part of the road network, however in terms of the GAA, there are, at most 16 senior intercounty games on at anyone time, thus the GAA have the ability to ensure that cameras are present at all these games as they do at championship time. The fact that they choose not to again makes trial by video evidence unfair.

As an aside, I have a question for you. Do you think that it is acceptable that 10 guilty men walk free rather than one innocent man go to jail? Nothing to do with thread, just thought I would ask

omaghredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 3656 - 16/02/2010 13:40:45    562962

How long until counties are hiring 15 lads with camcorders to record every transgression of the opposition players. These can then be submitted to the ref so he can review them and take appropriate retrospective action. Typical ill-thought-out GAA response.

RMDrive (Donegal) - Posts: 2202 - 16/02/2010 13:44:52    562968

Simple solution. Let the referee deal with the game as he sees it at the time. He might miss things but hes only human

-------


yeh , and then hypothetically speakin dublin came up against tyrone and eamonn fennell came up against .. i dont know .. we will say sean cavanagh if he was deployed in the midfield role .. and if eamonn fennell off the ball turned around and clattered sean cavanagh , leaveing cavanagh needing treatment in hospital .. and the referee missed it , are you telling me you would accept it and move on because the referee is "only human" ? Are you honestly suggesting that Eamonn Fennell would not be banned for leaveing a fellow player in a hospital bed over night ? stop the narrow minded-ness lads ..

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13655 - 16/02/2010 13:46:38    562975

Can Mickey have the cameras banned from Croke Park if their league game is switched?
Surely it'll be now played in Omagh in case his lads get caught fouling on camera.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 16/02/2010 13:56:51    562996

Roger
County: Meath
Posts: 210


If you want to talk about murder cases head over to the non gaa forum for that. 2 years ago 4 meath players missed no games.

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 16/02/2010 14:10:13    563010

I blame the ref,in this case its our very own slasher mc enaney.i was sitting at home watching it on setanta and the minute bradley lunged at the tyrone back he should of walked the same with the third man in witch was a tyrone man.pat had an off night and made it worse by changing his mind(or was he made change it if you know what i mean).We know how mickey harte feels we got a raw deal last year it seems the gaa are making the rules up as we go along.every game should be video,if not then the should be no trail by video.

hardcore (Monaghan) - Posts: 1366 - 16/02/2010 14:17:51    563018

the ref should not of been put in that position in the first place

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13655 - 16/02/2010 15:05:28    563124

Omaghredhand, yours is an intelligent argument - but I stand over my opinion regardless of whether it is a criminal, civil or disciplinary issue. You make the point that it is a conscious decision which games are covered by television and that this means it is not a level playing field. How is this different from a Garda checkpoint, which somebody in the station consciously decides will only be on one road? Only the people who drive that road are checked, only those who break the rules on that road are charged. Again, if found in breach of the rules you could not plead clemency because there were not checkpoints on every other road at that point. A judge would laugh you out of court if you tried that.
Regarding your question, guilt can only be decided by the level of evidence placed in front of those who make the decision. The bar needs to be at a level that your peers must be without reasonable doubt, it order to find you guilty. This inevitably means that many guilty will walk free as the case against them is not strong enough, which in turn protects those who are innocent. 10 to 1 is a tough ratio to swallow, but perhaps is not far off the mark.
Dell, is the referee who can't count. Five Meath players missed two championship games and three more did not miss any games, as they only got a month. He seems fixated on suspensions, punishing people and sending guys off. It will be interesting to see how he handles his big Meath Division 2 FL game this weekend. Will eight players get the line under Dell or is he just letting his frustration out on this board? Hopefully the latter.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 16/02/2010 15:06:51    563128

This was posted as a new thread, but has been moved here to keep all relevant discussion in the one place.

147sportsman
16/02/2010 14:19 Video Evidence For years the GAA and referees have been totally against video evidence on the basis that referees must make immediate decisions and do not have the benefit of hindsight. Now following the Derry / Tyrone NFL game we have a situation, following video evidence, where the best referee in the country Pat McEneaney has effectively admitted that he made four serious errors by not handing out four red cards instead of yellow. Will Pat be 'punished' by the GAA in light of these mistakes? We now have a situation where in effect the CCCC are the real referees of games. Of course the whole thing is ridiculous and the GAA are once again 'self destructing'. It is farcical that all of this only applies to televised games as the vast majority have no cameras present at all. One also wonders why video evidence never seems to apply the other way round where a referee who has given a red card is asked by the CCCC to reduce it to a yellow instead. This business of replacing yellow cards with red after the event is like your examiner telling you that you have passed your driving test only for him or her to contact you a few days later to say that they have had a rethink and that you have not passed at all. It would be bizarre. One other problem with the red cards given to the three Tyrone players and the one from Derry. Pat McEneaney and the CCC are saying that these players should have been sent off. Suppose Derry had narrowly lost the game and Tyrone had three players on the pitch who should have been sent off. The whole thing is just crazy.

Administrator (None) - Posts: 535 - 16/02/2010 15:09:13    563132

Brock_Lesnar
County: Tyrone
Posts: 53

562927 blu
County: Down
Posts: 727

562836 Video evidence can only be used where there is a camera present. If there is a camera there and a player transgresses he will be suspended on video evidence.

If there is no cameras there & the same player commits the same offence it will go unpunished.

Therefore the teams that play in front of the cameras are unfairly scrutinised.

Video evidence can only be used if there are cameras at every game.

This is not an issue in championship time as all games are covered, but at this time teams will be missing players while they prepare for the latter stages of the league & the championship.

On another note where video evidence is used it should also be used th clear players wrongly punished.


Ok little ' I dont like Tyrone ' Blu from Down. 2 things:

1. If your 'saviour' Marty Clarke hits someone during your next league game, gets caught by the referee and gets a yellow card - no problem. However, the Friday after the match he gets a 1 month suspension because of trial by tv - you wouldn't feel a little ****** off? I think you would.

2. Tadgh Kennelly was caught clearly striking in the AI final last year and also admitted to doing it - by your argument it was caught on tv so he should be banned. Alas, nothing comes of it - no ban, nothing. What do we do now?

I think that all Mickey Harte is asking for is consistency. But at the minute that is not happenin. All the C's cant ban 2 people 1 week and the following week 10 players get no bans for the same offenses.
----------------------------------

Whats your problem? I agreed with Mickey Harte that video evidence has to be used for all teams or none, consistency.

I also agree that Kennelly should have been sent off in the final last year. He wasnt so should have been banned on TV evidence as it was used earlier in the championship. Also Corks Miskella, who hit Brian McGuigan, should have missed the final & possibly Canty for jumping on Sean Cavanagh.

Read my post again. Never is any post have I bashed Tyrone.

Learn to read before you write rubbish! Maybe thats a project for you in your mid-term break!

blu (Down) - Posts: 1240 - 16/02/2010 16:23:49    563253

Roger
County: Meath
Posts: 211


I will handle it hopefully the same way i handled the game last sunday . So am right meath players or some served no games .

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 16/02/2010 17:25:38    563355

Folks, discipline in the GAA is inconsistent with or without a camera. How many times have you seen a club match where a referee will send one player off for a hit while another ref would deem it as a good manly challenge. Having trial by tv is just another tool in the long list of discipline inconsistencies in gaelic games. We will still have injustice with or without RTE/Setanta covering matches.

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 16/02/2010 17:43:51    563384

For about the sixth time Dell says Meath got off lightly with five players suspended for two championship games (have you ever seen another county hit with so many bans in the championship season. Still won't answer that Dell, will you?) - why, because three other guys were hit with one month suspensions which saw them miss no games. The three one month suspensions were pointless, just like the seven Dublin suspensions at the time which saw their players miss no games. Time for match suspensions says I - which leads me to this point.
One of the things that posters like Dell who have this persecution complex have missed is the fact that the three Tyrone lads hit with one montth suspensions will miss the grand total of ONE game. Their next league game is not until Sunday 7 March. The Laois and Kildare lads sent off in the O'Byrne Cup with one month suspensions have already missed TWO league games, as well as an O'Byrne Cup game - that's three in total. The Cork and Kerry players sent off last Saturday will miss TWO games each with a one month suspension. That is something that is unfair and worth complaining about. Surprisingly Mickey Harte has yet to bring that lack of consistency up.
Sometimes when you get so wrapped up with things you miss the bigger picture. It is a strange anomoly which nobody has picked up on.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 16/02/2010 21:22:27    563679

Roger
County: Meath
Posts: 212

Ricey got 4 matches for what? The gaa new that few meath players would not miss any games that is why they handed them a month. Oh you going sunday ?

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 16/02/2010 21:25:43    563687